Fact: Irresponsibility is always going to exist in some form, you just need to learn to deal with it in the best possible way.

I caught that that was your general point, hence why I said its a sad fact that we have to have search and rescue, but Im real happy we do. This guy and his kids would probably be dead otherwise.

You think he planned on getting lost? Im sure you've been lost someplace before, you plan on doing it? I bet you were pretty happy when someone helped you find your way.

But you have failed to see my point in that you're getting on a high horse and preaching all these things that you think are irresponsible (like saying they should have had a flashlight) when you dont know what you're talking about. Carrying a flashlight OB but having no shovel, beacon, or probe, is not the way to go about things. You can armchair quarterback all you want but know what you're talking about first.

You're making scared statements. Learn what it takes to ski properly in the backcountry and its just as safe, if not safer than skiing in bounds.

Stop being selfish yourself and open your eyes before you criticize others for doing things you don't know or understand.

Just to clarify, Im not saying this guy didnt screw up, but snowballs and others are hinting that he knowingly went and tried to get lost. Im sure this guy has learned his lesson.

Part of what makes America great is freedom. Cant stop the guy from skiing down public land, you just need to be prepared for the worst that could happen.

Not sure if you guys had seen this. More details:

http://www.poststar.com/news/local/article_2108aefa-263a-11df-9413-001cc4c03286.html

This story amazes me.

The amount of training, dedication and ENERGY required to pull something like this off, in the dark, is incredible.

Hats off to those responsible.

AdironRider wrote:

But you have failed to see my point in that you're getting on a high horse and preaching all these things that you think are irresponsible (like saying they should have had a flashlight) when you dont know what you're talking about. Carrying a flashlight OB but having no shovel, beacon, or probe, is not the way to go about things. You can armchair quarterback all you want but know what you're talking about first.

I can see the need for a beacon and probe out West, or in more extreme backcountry in the East, but a beacon and probe in the Gore sidecountry? Just wondering, as someone who skis sidecountry but not backcountry, what good would the probe and beacon do if someone went off the ridge? From how far away can an avy beacon be detected? Would an emergency whistle be just as important in that situation? Not looking for an argument, just more curious than anything.


I don't think that this applies to anyone here, but if you don't know where those tracks heading into the woods lead, DON'T FOLLOW THEM!

Frostillicus wrote:

Would an emergency whistle be just as important in that situation? I don't think that this applies to anyone here, but if you don't know where those tracks heading into the woods lead, DON'T FOLLOW THEM!

Whistles are very important. A must have. I've read more than one incident where they saved the day.

Don't know if these individuals had this other MUST HAVE!, but people need to carry Fire. Life saving warmth, it's visible from Aircraft, illuminates the night darkness and you can always have the neighbors over for BBQ and Smores.

Quote:

Whistles are very important. A must have. I've read more than one incident where they saved the day.

Yup. I always carry one.

Frostillicus wrote:

AdironRider wrote: But you have failed to see my point in that you're getting on a high horse and preaching all these things that you think are irresponsible (like saying they should have had a flashlight) when you dont know what you're talking about. Carrying a flashlight OB but having no shovel, beacon, or probe, is not the way to go about things. You can armchair quarterback all you want but know what you're talking about first. I can see the need for a beacon and probe out West, or in more extreme backcountry in the East, but a beacon and probe in the Gore sidecountry? Just wondering, as someone who skis sidecountry but not backcountry, what good would the probe and beacon do if someone went off the ridge? From how far away can an avy beacon be detected? Would an emergency whistle be just as important in that situation? Not looking for an argument, just more curious than anything. I don't think that this applies to anyone here, but if you don't know where those tracks heading into the woods lead, DON'T FOLLOW THEM!

Completely legitimate question. A beacon, probe, and shovel are totally necessary in the backcountry, just as much so in the slackcountry as well. Sure the survival stuff will help when the s*** hits the fan, but my point is that if these guys had the proper awareness and the right backcountry equipment in the first place, they could have lapped the Gore slackcountry all day and this never would have happened. Taking some other posters advice is like driving around everywhere with a towtruck following you waiting for the worst, as opposed to just fixing your car.

I will admit, primarily due to an overall lack of annual snowfall, the problem is nowhere near as frequent back East than it is here out West; however, 50 inches of heavy wet snow on weak faceted layers of rain crust, ice, and all the wonderful Eastern conditions you can find in a low snow year and you're going to have avalanches anywhere. Look at the guys up in the high peaks. It doesnt take much, and Gore slackcountry has plenty of terrain traps, trees, etc that will really mess you up if the slope rips out, and yes, glades will slide as well. Its not just wide open western bowls that provide those planet earth type avis that you need to be aware of. People have gotten completely buried here in Jackson when a 20 foot uphill slope of a ditch slid out. That ski patroller died, from avalanche that slid 20 feet down to a ditch. The right terrain can make little slides a big deal.

Ill see if I can find the TR from over on TGR earlier this season that can show just what can happen. Couple dudes were skiing thick, relatively low angle glades back east with only 10" fresh snow and caused avalanches. It does not take wide open spaces and 500+ inches a year to have to worry about avalanches, a strong wind can load the right aspect 3+ feet deep in a matter of hours.

Ill admit, I myself was naive to the seriousness of avalanche activity and the consequences of playing in the snow everyday. I highly encourage people to go out and learn about backcountry safety, the amount of information and knowledge you will obtain will make you a much better outdoorsman, and give you the skills needed to go out and explore with confidence.

Or you can continue to think you need a full overnight survival pack to even look at the slackcountry like others suggest, but in reality it takes just a little awareness, personal responsibility, and the proper avalanche equipment to have a wonderful full day OB.



Edit to answer technical questions: A beacon sends out radio signals in an eliptical curve outward from the beacon, think radio waves that are shaped like half ovals emitting out in all directions. When you switch the beacon to recieve it will recognize these radio signals in distances of meters, but the key element is that it measures the distance the actual radio wave has traveled. It is tough to grasp at first when your beacon says the one your looking for is 50 meters away when in reality it might only be 20 feet to your right, but the radio waves have traveled 50 meters to get to you. ( This is a concept that is tough to describe, but really easy to see with a picture, so Ill see if I can find one later tonight when Im not at work, but I hope that makes sense. ) That being said, a beacon will start to pick up signals from about 40-50 meters away give or take.

To clarify, Im not saying a whistle wouldnt have helped in this situation, but if they had the proper backcountry gear and awareness in the first place, they could have been OB all day and had a wonderful time.

AdironRider wrote:

Edit to answer technical questions: A beacon sends out radio signals in an eliptical curve outward from the beacon, think radio waves that are shaped like half ovals emitting out in all directions. When you switch the beacon to recieve it will recognize these radio signals in distances of meters, but the key element is that it measures the distance the actual radio wave has traveled. It is tough to grasp at first when your beacon says the one your looking for is 50 meters away when in reality it might only be 20 feet to your right, but the radio waves have traveled 50 meters to get to you. ( This is a concept that is tough to describe, but really easy to see with a picture, so Ill see if I can find one later tonight when Im not at work, but I hope that makes sense. ) That being said, a beacon will start to pick up signals from about 40-50 meters away give or take. To clarify, Im not saying a whistle wouldnt have helped in this situation, but if they had the proper backcountry gear and awareness in the first place, they could have been OB all day and had a wonderful time.

...40m to 50m away the search and rescue team could be having a conversation with the lost party, without yelling. Beacon's are if the person is buried under snow caused from an avalanche, not for cheating in hide and go seek. There was no need for a beacon nor a probe in the recovery process (not saying that it isn't smart to have them). There was no avalanche. Maybe a shovel would have been useful. The best backcountry gear they could have had was a compass, some knowledge of the land, and skins.

I don't think that having a probe and beacon would have made hiking out of there any more or less desirable.

fujative. wrote:

...40m to 50m away the search and rescue team could be having a conversation with the lost party, without yelling. Beacon's are if the person is buried under snow caused from an avalanche, not for cheating in hide and go seek. There was no need for a beacon nor a probe in the recovery process (not saying that it isn't smart to have them). There was no avalanche. Maybe a shovel would have been useful. The best backcountry gear they could have had was a compass, some knowledge of the land, and skins. I don't think that having a probe and beacon would have made hiking out of there any more or less desirable.

Does the local SAR even use beacons in Gore mtn area recovery operations? Just curious...I cant imagine there's any more than an infintesimal amount of slackcountry skiers, day hikers, snowshoers, etc that use one, so I'm wondering if the SAR even uses or trains on recovery using one.

I asked one of the rescuers about the whistle. He felt that it would have helped a little, but not as much as you might think. It was his feeling that with the trees so thick and plastered in snow, sound was not traveling.

This is speculation on my part but ... at that elevation it's quite possible the cover was primarily balsam/everygreen. Farther down on the lower parts of the ridge (Tannery) we know it's mostly hardwood.

I got a few words out of Mike last night. Thought you might be interested:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/1970/03/mike-pratt-comments-on-sundays-search.html

AdironRider wrote:

Completely legitimate question. A beacon, probe, and shovel are totally necessary in the backcountry, just as much so in the slackcountry as well. Sure the survival stuff will help when the s*** hits the fan, but my point is that if these guys had the proper awareness and the right backcountry equipment in the first place, they could have lapped the Gore slackcountry all day and this never would have happened.

I think you are putting too much emphasis on beacon, shovel and probe. Not sure how these items would have helped them lapped the Gore slackcountry much. You are leaving out the most important pieces of equipment that should be had first. Tele/AT skis, skins and a compass or GPS. Having a set of skis and skins and a compass would have let them skin back up.

The real issue is the proper awareness and common sense.

Harvey44 wrote:

I asked one of the rescuers about the whistle. He felt that it would have helped a little, but not as much as you might think. It was his feeling that with the trees so thick and plastered in snow, sound was not traveling.

Agreed. Once you're in the those dense snow ghost trees. Your buddy can be 100 feet away and you could yell as loud as you want He ain't going to here you

Harvey44 wrote:

I asked one of the rescuers about the whistle. He felt that it would have helped a little, but not as much as you might think.

Is that right? In the book " Exploring the 46 Adk High Peaks " the author tells of a x-country skier on the summit of some Adk peak. He was off the main trail when the snow beneath him collapsed/sunk and he fell into a 12-15 foot deep snowhole of less dense snow than he had been on. He was unable to climb out. There were only those very short, knee high trees at this elevation....nothing to climb up and out on. He was trapped and would have been screwed.

You cannot yell to summon help or alert others for very long at all. Very, very quickly your voice's volume will disappear and very quickly you lose your voice completely.... then you are unable to summon help from people who may be in your vicinity!

Yelling also rapidly dehydrates and completely exhausts you. Do you know why that's a very bad thing in this situation?

You can " call for help " for hours and hours - Days - with whistles without losing your voice, getting dehydrated and exhausted.

It was a good thing this X-country skier didn't share your opinion of whistles. He kept blowing on his whistle and eventually a group of skiers in proximity heard it, went looking for him and saved him. If he didn't have his whistle, he likely would have been hoarse when the skiers finally passed by and he'ld still be out there.

In the Gore incident, a whistle helps an active search party find you, get a fix on you, so they don't pass right by you in the darkness, snow cover pines, etc (That Happens!) .... so they spend less time stumbling around in the inky darkness, etc. These particular Gore skiers may have already spent much of their dwindling energy and hydration yelling for help - energy/hydration that would have been very useful hiking out or fighting off hypothermia.

A Whistle's sound carries better than voices - they are considerably louder. They WILL REACH FARTHER AND LAST LONGER than you voice. If conditions are poor for hearing then they're even worse for visiblity, esp at night. You have a much better chance of alerting people in your area if you have a whistle.

Whistles good! I always have my Wolf whistle handy......... in case of Hotties.

There's only one way to settle this . . . MORE COWBELL!

Spongeworthy wrote:

There's only one way to settle this . . . MORE COWBELL!

Good example! Those are used to alert Heidi and Co as to the wayward cow's position. Sound is a main method to summoning help, alerting others to your location and telling people you need help.

How many hundreds of sports games have we all watched where the Official's Whistle is clearly audible amidst all the crowd noise, players colliding, on and on. The Whistle's sound reaches out and we all hear it ! All the way from your couch!

Who hasn't been to sporting events live and heard a whistle above all the crowd noise, through all the hoopla?

Or the Police Officer directing traffic at a busy intersection full of loud vehiles, driver's listening to music, windows rolled up, etc. He uses his Whistle and the drivers hear it above the din.

Even if conditions lower the range of sound, a Whistle will substantailly extend that range and preserve one's ablity to audibily alert others - there may not be an active search party and victims may have to rely on people who happen to be in the area. Whistles save energy and body hydration. Those are all very important things that the simple act of carrying a whistle can help.

The x-country skier mentioned above would not need any convincing about the value of whistles. There would be nothing " to settle " in his mind on this issue.

If that don't speak volumes to people.........