Railroad to Gore?

[skiboy895]

Sorry to distract from all the riding and skiing going on, but has anyone heard anything about when the "ski train" from Saratoga to North Creek is supposed to start running? Saw the tracks today at numerous crossings and stations and it all looks pretty well finished. All the stuff that I can find on it is from 2006ish.

[Lbtchnlgs]

I haven't heard anything about it recently. I wonder if it's on hold?

[St. Jerry]

Was supposed tio finished in 1999. I woudn't hold my breath on it...

[adkskier]

The Warren County portion of the tracks is done. It's in Saratoga County's hands now.

[Snowballs]

not completely sure here...............there was some talk about a side link to a closed down industrial plant in Corinth, an effort to keep that plant a viable option.

i don't think the snow trains will ever materialize. back in the day, before interstates and before most people had their own cars, the snow trains brought skiers from albany,schnect., etc. ok.

trains take forever to get anywhere. it's now much quicker to just drive.

[Cliff]

I think it's due to begin operation about the time the chip-fab plant opens in Malta :mrgreen:.

That train thing is a major waste of money IMHO.

[highpeaksdrifter]

That train thing is a major waste of money IMHO.

I always thought that too.

[TomCat]

There are a lot of people that live and work in Manhattan that don't own cars. It might appeal to them as long as it didn't take too long. I doubt anyone who owns a car would use the train.

tom

[jimmer]

wonder how much thell charge to park a train

[Lbtchnlgs]

wonder how much thell charge to park a train :lol:

[Harvey44]

There are a lot of people that live and work in Manhattan that don't own cars. It might appeal to them as long as it didn't take too long. I doubt anyone who owns a car would use the train.

tom

I've been thinking about the reverse. Move to North Creek (River) and use the train to go south to NYC and beyond (family). Would be pretty sweet.

[I:)skiing]

I too believe a certain number of NYC folks would take the train......especially if they did not need a car once in town...or taxi's became viable.

It might be a romantic notion, but it would be quite fun to jump on the "snow train" at 5pm and arrive in Northcreek at say 10 or even 11. There may be a need to move into another train...or make some type of connection. Watch Warren Miller films, party, sleep whatever. Ski Groups are on the delcine. I used to run many trips, but the youth does not want to "plan" something weeks in advance. WIth this option they get the benefits of a fun group setting and little to no planning in advance.


Now to the immediate question: When will the train start? I have been asking this quesiton to many folks in the know....sadly it is going to be a while, if ever. In the Northern Enterprise---May 16 edition, they report that the company operating in NorthCreek is loosing money at some stations or just breaking even....they plan to stop running to some stations already this summer. Some County Commissioners are ready to give up on the "bleeding" that is coming from the rail line. This is summer operation, not even a winter line. I say this, because while one might expect 1) more travelers and 2) fewer runs..1 or 2 per week....there would be more overhead too....heat for the cars, snow plows for the rails.


Now the good news.... I will post this separately too as I think the drawings on Northcreek should get more attention in another thread...citing the gondi at the train station....

YOU MUST CLICK on the NORTHCREEK plan and connection. I could not link them as they are PDFs.

http://www.firstwilderness.com/masterplan.php

[BigAirJay]

I was up kayaking near Warrensburg last week and there was a good sized crew out working on the tracks. Seems like they are putting in way to much work/money to not have amount to anything.

[I:)skiing]

This makes me smile...Thanks for the news.....Question, is 1000 acre farm or park above or below where you saw the men working? If below...I read they are going to take "as necessary" trips to that stop...As necessary was defined as profitable. If they were working on the South side of the tracks, below this 1000 acre stop....that means good news is coming.

[jimmer]

there was a story in the cronicle about a 3,000,000 dollar covered concrete slab that will be used as a stop,i think it was in warrensburg,but not sure.so it looks like it will be happening,as too what extent,anybodys guess.

[I:)skiing]

Any links to that paper would be appreciated...I have been searching and cannot find anything like that.

[x10003q]

I lived in NYC by Union Sq for about 10 years. I think mass transit is a wonderful asset in the right situation. I always hoped to try the ski train to Rutland. However, it is expensive, time consuming, and cumbersome. It train ride takes about 6 hours and costs for May 29, 2009 (it might cost more during ski season) for 1 person are $135 round trip (dep NYC 545pm on Friday return from Rutland @ 445pm Sunday). This does not count getting to Penn Station on a Friday during rush hour with ski equipment. Let's say we skip dragging the skis/boots/poles. Now I have to leave work and take the subway up to Penn Station (assuming I have all the other stuff you need for skiing at work). This only costs about $2. Once in Rutland you must take van or cab service up to were you are staying. This usually costs something ($20?)and will probably take 45 minutes if you are not the first stop. Now at Killington getting around is not so easy without a car, but it can be done. You need to rent equipment for 2 days($88 for good stuff). Sunday you need to ski until about 2pm (return your rental equipment) in order to get to Rutland (more money). You are back at Penn Station at 1130pm and then can take the subway home. It might work for a single person who will rent equipment and not care about pounding the hill from 830am to 4pm and wants to party on the train. Extra costs include rentals and connections to and from the train stations. You might leave your office at 5pm and get into your room at 1230am. This has become a 7.5 hour trip.

Now imagine that you are married with a 10 year old and mutiply the costs out. It is cheaper and less time consuming to rent a car even with gas and tolls. It would be very hard to get around NYC at rush hour lugging 3 sets of skis, boots and poles.

It is a tough sell for a family. It might work for a single person or a couple who do not ski much.

[jimmer]

Any links to that paper would be appreciated...I have been searching and cannot find anything like that. all i can find is a e-mail adress chronicle@loneoak.com phone #518-792-1126 the story ran afew weeks ago,ask them about the station with the 3000000 dollar price tag thell know what you mean.good luck.i threw my copy away or i wood have sent it to ya.

[Snowballs]

However, it is expensive, time consuming, and cumbersome. You might leave your office at 5pm and get into your room at 1230am. This has become a 7.5 hour trip.

Now imagine that you are married with a 10 year old and mutiply the costs out. It is cheaper and less time consuming to rent a car even with gas and tolls. It would be very hard to get around NYC at rush hour lugging 3 sets of skis, boots and poll

amen brother. and i might add exhausting. getting to your room at 12:30 am and maybe lights out at 1:00 am, after all that schleeping, is gonna make for some tired weekend skiing. then it's the same thing when you go home on sunday. the people, especially kids, will be totally exhausted. it will be an ordeal, not a pleasure and people are not gonna do it. it's not gonna work.

existing trains SUCK! when i lived in the Pittsburgh, Pa. area i road the train up here and it was an 18 hour ride! then i still had to get from Rensseller to Lake George-adding another hour or so. i can drive the same trip in nine hours. and i don't have to schleep my stuff around thru the train stations switching trains,etc. can't imagine doing it w/ski gear and kids in tow. no way! r u freekin crazy?

the existing trains we use for passengers are stupid. ever stand beside one? how many mega tons do those things weigh? locomotives alone weigh 100 tons. all that just to transport a hundred or so passengers? how inefficient is that! what a waste of fuel. when you use freight trains to haul passengers, it's like driving a fully loaded semi around to get to work, to do your grocery shopping and to go visit Nanny. Dumb! this combined with the above issues, the extremely high cost of buying right of ways,etc and it's no wonder passenger trains are not profitable.

besides, there are not masses of people in NYC wanting to go to Gore. IF there were, the Bus Companies would already be cashing in by bringing them here and it would not cost the Government one thin dime! they're gonna spend tens/hundred of millions on the snow trains and IF they ever run, it will be for a very short period of time. they suck, there's insufficient riders, they're very expensive to operate and they are wicked slow. They're already ten years late.

people need to think outside the box. it amazes me how so many educated people/leaders are mere Lemmings following any hare brained idea put before them. "YES! YES! beautiful idea!" and then they ignore the existing evidence. when was the last time AMTRACK was profitable? It's almost always deeply in the red.

equally amazing is the fact that Walt showed us decades ago how to do it and our lemming leaders ignore him. it seems once people leave the environs of Orlando, they forget what a wonderful experience riding the Monorail is! Millions and Millions and Millions have riden it and I dare say loved it. It's SMOOTH! It's COOL! It's FUN! It's a wonderful, pleasureable experience ! It's up in the air, providing a great view of the countryside. these reasons alone would greatly increase ridership. It's even much nicer to look at than existing trains and their eyesore tracks. It's much lighter weight and sleek aerodynamics drives down fuel costs, especially a high speeds. Plus, there's another astronomical cost savings with Monorails when it comes to new lines.

Monorails can be placed down existing interstate highway right of ways! no need to purchase lands, tens of thousands of homes/businesses just to tear them down and install train tracks. the savings are astronomical! Viola! Viability!

Monorails vastly increase safety as they do not have the hundreds of road crossings where vehicles and trains can and do collide. no miles of track where pedestrians, deer, etc can get run over. no traffic tie ups waiting for the daily trains to pass. in short, a much more enjoyable, efficient and safe way to travel.

No matter what, there are no Gore skiers stranded in NYC. if there were ....Dey already be on da bus !

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

from personal experience, "ski trains" work in europe 'cause most people don't drag boots and skis around. instead, the rent at the resort, which feature great, leading-edge equipment at cheap prices.

if you insist on bringing your own equipment, you're not going to take a train. period.

this is not to hate on the train proposal. trains can be quick, efficient and relaxing. it's just that i think we first need a culture change to accept train travel.

[skimore]

from personal experience, "ski trains" work in europe 'cause most people don't drag boots and skis around. instead, the rent at the resort, which feature great, leading-edge equipment at cheap prices.

if you insist on bringing your own equipment, you're not going to take a train. period.

this is not to hate on the train proposal. trains can be quick, efficient and relaxing. it's just that i think we first need a culture change to accept train travel.

Who, except for the person that ski's one week a year isn't going to be using there own equipment?

[mattchuck2]

I would never take a train, but that's because I have a car. If I lived in NYC and had no car, then it'd be a different story. People pay $89 for bus trips from the city to VT including lift tickets (http://frugaltraveler.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/skiing-in-vermont-by-bus/), so if they can get the price down around that level, then I can definitely see it being a viable option.

But I can't see that happening.

[Snowballs]

I would never take a train, but that's because I have a car. If I lived in NYC and had no car, then it'd be a different story. People pay $89 for bus trips from the city to VT including lift tickets (http://frugaltraveler.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/06/skiing-in-vermont-by-bus/), so if they can get the price down around that level, then I can definitely see it being a viable option.

But I can't see that happening.

there's your sign right there. the Snow Trains will NEVER EVER be able to match that price!!! not without subsidies. and mapquest says a bus can make the Gore trip in 4.3 hours vs what 6.5 + on a train. the bus drops you off at Slopeside, the train at NC so you gotta schleep yo stuff onto a shuttle for yet another ride and another .75 hour counting train unload/bus load/drive to Gore.

The Bus runs DO NOT cost the State one thin additional dime!!! and if there's no ski business, there's no millions lost to taxpayers or the Bus Co.'s- they simply do other trips. The Snow Trains look to be north of 40-50 million +++ before they even make one run. plus they'll never be able to stay operating. they're too slow, too expensive and there's no excess Gore skiers stranded in NYC.....if there were the Bus Companies would be cashing in by bringing them to Gore!!! when was the last time AMTRAK was profitable? they're almost always deeply in the red, even though they make some necessary runs, aka so people can get to work! there's no necessity in the snow trains that would compell any ridership.

***EDIT***
another nail in the coffin is the fact that NC is the end-of-the-line. there are no points beyond that would provide supplementary passengers. unlike other ski trains that serve much, much large ski areas and points beyond, this rail line will have all the thru traffic of a dead end street. even if it arrives with a handful of skiers, it will make the return trip south empty! the long ride will vitually rule out day trips. who's gonna spend 13-14 hours on a train round trip AND ski all in the same day? it could park in NC all weekend waiting for the few skiers to return home but that's not gonna be profitable. the NC rail turntable marks the end of the line for a dead end idea.

The issues i pointed out are easily discoverable right from my living room. same w/the info Matt provided.

Don't these Clowns who support/think these projects up have any common knowledge, any common sense or do any unbiased basic research?

i am truly sorry. but this is UN-FREEKIN-REAL! UN-FREEKIN-REAL!

The geniuses hatching these projects have set the stage for some real financial fiascos. their house of cards is gonna collapse. the defecation is gonna strike the rotary oscillator and it's gonna fly on the NY taxpayers and the Gore/Face skiers. Don't be surprised if Front Street bails before it's over. Don't be surprised if Front Street never gets started.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

Who, except for the person that ski's one week a year isn't going to be using there own equipment?



i paid approximately 25 euro/day for insured skis and poles, and the equipment i had was available at list price for about 800 euro. so, assuming you'd buy at list, i could have skied 32 days on high-end equipment and would have never worried about maintanence, loss, damage, etc.

but, skis usually last me at least 3 years, so it would be a pretty bad deal.

but, potential train customers from NYC probably don't ski 32 days a year, and they probably would place some value on not having the schlep their stuff around.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

mapquest says a bus can make the Gore trip in 4.3 hours vs what 6.5 + on a train. the bus drops you off at Slopeside, the train at NC so you gotta schleep yo stuff onto a shuttle for yet another ride and another .75 hour counting train unload/bus load/drive to Gore.



the length of the trip is a serious issue....they'd need to re-work a lot of the tracks to permit faster trains.

regarding your NC drop-off point, that won't be an issue once the interconnect gondola is up and running.... :wink:

[Snowballs]

mapquest says a bus can make the Gore trip in 4.3 hours vs what 6.5 + on a train. the bus drops you off at Slopeside, the train at NC so you gotta schleep yo stuff onto a shuttle for yet another ride and another .75 hour counting train unload/bus load/drive to Gore.



the length of the trip is a serious issue....they'd need to re-work a lot of the tracks to permit faster trains.

regarding your NC drop-off point, that won't be an issue once the interconnect gondola is up and running.... :wink:

HEEEEEYYYY! what about the Teleporter? :wink:

"Beam this thing up Scotty!". lol

[Snowballs]

Look what i just found.

http://www.poststar.com/articles/2009/05/27/news/local/14827114.txt

http://www.poststar.com/articles/2009/05/28/news/local/14831711.txt

the operators of the train don't want to run the length of the existing tracks unless the government guarantees their profits! after all the money spent so far and this is the dismal result? don't forget the trestle at Hadley was also rebuilt, a mega cost seldom listed. Brand new $2,500,000 platforms at Hadley and Thurman are scheduled to open.......JUNE 1!!! BUT the trains won't run that far cuz it's not profitable!!! hehehe. WAIT, there's more. the tracks are badly damaged and the Government might not rebuild them. comments like....it maybe time to rethink the business plan......why rebuild it now?.......maybe the tracks should be tore up and a bike path installed....are starting to come out of Government officials - even from ones who were strong advocates of this project!

PUDDLES....are you reading this?

There's still more very substantial costs to be paid to complete the rail line for the snow trains.

now the Government is on the "Horns of a Dilemna". they have to chose between perpetually throwing good money after bad money. even if they chose to waste more money on the train, it will never be profitable.

this is all just ACT ONE. ACT TWO will find the Government on the "Horns of a Dilemna" with the Ski Bowl. Same Players, same Brain Trust, same results.

Just yesterday, i wrote.......



The geniuses hatching these projects have set the stage for some real financial fiascos. their house of cards is gonna collapse. the defecation is gonna strike the rotary oscillator and it's gonna fly on the NY taxpayers and the Gore/Face skiers. Don't be surprised if Front Street bails before it's over. Don't be surprised if Front Street never gets started.

More Drama to come. just watch. the end results? projects fail, mega cash flushed, taxpayers and Gore/Whiteface skiers buggered.

there's some good comments/info at the bottom of the Post Star articles. There's no "Yes men" there.