Gondi loading in downtown NC! Check it out.

[I:)skiing]

Not sure if anyone has seen the drawings found in the link below. The town of NC never looked better! You must click on Northcreek and Northcreek Connections, I cannot link them directly becuase they are PDFs.


Note: Gondi loading station at river front park, next to the remodeled train station.

Nice walking path along the river upto Ski Bowl.



Now for the interconnect thread.....with this, we need two gondi....or one REALLY long one with a Ski Bowl loading area.


http://www.firstwilderness.com/masterplan.php


As for grammer: I am presuming that "gondi" can both be singular and plural of the true word. :wink: Similar to "deer"

[Harvey44]

I think I'm changing my name to Ghondi Boy. This is my new avatar:


http://www.postimage.org/PqxUDEr.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

[I:)skiing]

If I was only that good on computer.....Ahh the possibilities.
------
Comments on the link?

[Harvey44]

Comments on the link?

I think it's a beautiful plan.

But I think I should relax...
http://www.postimage.org/aVuz7ri.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)
It could be a while.

[x10003q]

This is a nice idea but I do not think the people in North Creek would have approved this type of development. I think this plan was one of the reasons the Copperfield was built. After this never materialized, the Copperfield was closed and then sold by the original owner.

The gondola connection from the town to the skiing would have been huge for North Creek, although it might have started a 'knock down and rebuild' situation on Main St. NC would have been unique in the East where the original town connects to the skiing via a lift (like Park City ). It also would have cut into Whiteface vacationers and ORDA does not like when that happens.

As I mentioned in another thread, the train is a tough sell for skiers, even when they start in a place like NYC. Maybe a train from the Albany area (1.5 hr, reasonable price, decent parking at a few local stations) could work like Winter Park in Colorado.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

It also would have cut into Whiteface vacationers and ORDA does not like when that happens.


Not sure I follow.....I could see vested interests in Lake Placid not liking it (Lussi?), but ORDA? They run both, so attracting to skiers to Gore, even some that might have instead gone to WF, should be fine from ORDA's perspective.

[SIAWOL]

It also would have cut into Whiteface vacationers and ORDA does not like when that happens.


Not sure I follow.....I could see vested interests in Lake Placid not liking it (Lussi?), but ORDA? They run both, so attracting to skiers to Gore, even some that might have instead gone to WF, should be fine from ORDA's perspective.

I assumed x10003q's theory was that WF vacationers are likely to spread more of their money around at Lake Placid ORDA venues--boblsed, ski jump, skating, etc.--than they would at ORDA venues at Gore, which is pretty much just the ski area.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

It also would have cut into Whiteface vacationers and ORDA does not like when that happens.


Not sure I follow.....I could see vested interests in Lake Placid not liking it (Lussi?), but ORDA? They run both, so attracting to skiers to Gore, even some that might have instead gone to WF, should be fine from ORDA's perspective.

I assumed x10003q's theory was that WF vacationers are likely to spread more of their money around at Lake Placid ORDA venues--boblsed, ski jump, skating, etc.--than they would at ORDA venues at Gore, which is pretty much just the ski area.



aaah, ok, thanks.

while this might be a concern, i'd think that vacationers that what to check out the olympic facilities will do so and continue to go to WF/LP regardless of what goes on at gore....and the new clients that a destination resort at gore would attract should offset ORDA maybe losing a few bobsled ticket sales.

[x10003q]

ORDA represents the Lake Placid region not the North Creek region. Gore got lumped into ORDA during the early 1980s. Watch the ORDA Board meeting where they tabled the ski bowl chair. Board members Lussi and Wiebrect own huge resorts in the middle of LP, and board member Donaldson is the Essex County Manager. LP is in Essex County. Their interests are in LP, not 40 miles south in NC. Here is an article about the $22 million conference Center that is planned for LP. It is right next to Lussi's property.
http://www.pressrepublican.com/0100_news/local_story_008231851.html

Imagine what $22 million would do inthe NC/Gore area.

There are many international/national ski events at at WF each year. ORDA has NEVER run an event at Gore. Why is that? LP already has the bobsled run, the speed skating venue, and the hockey/ice skating rinks. These events have to be in LP. Do you think they could spare a skier cross event? How about a freestyle competition? How about a cross country event? Gore is part of ORDA. Gore runs a bunch of junior races each year. I am sure they could figure out some of the higher levels of competition. All these events draw vacationers and competitors and the support staff for the events filling up Lussi's and Wiebrects's resorts and increasing Essex County's tax revenue. Many of these events are on TV. How much is that worth in promotional value?

Gore's has 2 big advantages over WF: It has better access to population and a better all around ski experience. If downtown NC ever looked like the drawings above, it would draw many visitors away from LP. This is why ORDA never promotes Gore. WF is in direct competition with Gore.

My own selfish motvation for developing NC has to do with having more people ski midweek so Gore cannot justify closing so much of the mouintain midweek. People know this happens and ski elsewhere midweek. This contributes to the restaurants and bars closing midweek. ORDA likes that Gore remains a somewhat unknown day/weekend ski area (not a resort) even though Gore has the terrain and access to compete with the WF and certain ski resorts in Vermont. I do like the lack of crowds at Gore on most weekends. However, Gore has limited the crowd by limiting the parking. If Gore was promoted, the parking would still control the crowd.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

ORDA represents the Lake Placid region not the North Creek region. Gore got lumped into ORDA during the early 1980s. Watch the ORDA Board meeting where they tabled the ski bowl chair. Board members Lussi and Wiebrect own huge resorts in the middle of LP, and board member Donaldson is the Essex County Manager. LP is in Essex County. Their interests are in LP, not 40 miles south in NC. Here is an article about the $22 million conference Center that is planned for LP. It is right next to Lussi's property.
http://www.pressrepublican.com/0100_news/local_story_008231851.html

Imagine what $22 million would do inthe NC/Gore area.

There are many international/national ski events at at WF each year. ORDA has NEVER run an event at Gore. Why is that? LP already has the bobsled run, the speed skating venue, and the hockey/ice skating rinks. These events have to be in LP. Do you think they could spare a skier cross event? How about a freestyle competition? How about a cross country event? Gore is part of ORDA. Gore runs a bunch of junior races each year. I am sure they could figure out some of the higher levels of competition. All these events draw vacationers and competitors and the support staff for the events filling up Lussi's and Wiebrects's resorts and increasing Essex County's tax revenue. Many of these events are on TV. How much is that worth in promotional value?

Gore's has 2 big advantages over WF: It has better access to population and a better all around ski experience. If downtown NC ever looked like the drawings above, it would draw many visitors away from LP. This is why ORDA never promotes Gore. WF is in direct competition with Gore.

My own selfish motvation for developing NC has to do with having more people ski midweek so Gore cannot justify closing so much of the mouintain midweek. People know this happens and ski elsewhere midweek. This contributes to the restaurants and bars closing midweek. ORDA likes that Gore remains a somewhat unknown day/weekend ski area (not a resort) even though Gore has the terrain and access to compete with the WF and certain ski resorts in Vermont. I do like the lack of crowds at Gore on most weekends. However, Gore has limited the crowd by limiting the parking. If Gore was promoted, the parking would still control the crowd.



this is all way off, imo. there is no grand conspiracy. i really think things are being managed to develop all the facilities.

any investment made at WF is made in parallel at gore....in fact, rumor has it WF lost some funding for lookout to help gore with burnt ridge/ski bow. anyway, ORDA is a REGIONAL development authority....good luck getting high-speed quads and fancy gondolas AND cheap lift tix without ORDA/NY state.

regarding the conference center, LP has a history of hosting conferences and it would make no sense to have such a facility in NC. the conference facilities are part of an overall plan to advance all of the assets of ORDA. ORDA has no mandate to generally benefit NC or LP. its job is to promote the facilities under its management.

[Snowballs]

just when i thought it couldn't get anymore ridiculous...........

a gondi from downtown NC to Gore? :lol: :lol: :lol: LMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anybody wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

just when i thought it couldn't get anymore ridiculous...........

a gondi from downtown NC to Gore? :lol: :lol: :lol: LMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

anybody wanna buy a bridge in Brooklyn?



ok, then, what's your plan for developing gore into a destination resort and helping out NC in the process?

[Snowballs]

ok. i've regained my composure.....but my side still aches.....man that was funny!

puddles........why do i have to have a plan for Gore/NC? just because i don't believe any old BS idea that comes along? but if you insist.......here's one for the Gullibles.......how about they close the road to Gore and force people to go to NC? then install a teleporter to access the mtn. they could even go whole hog and install a port to a Worm Hole and thus become the World's first " Gateway to another Galaxy!", which is where some people seem to be living anyway.

or give everybody that goes to NC $1000. that's sure to be far more effective in bringing people into NC and probably far cheaper than the other ideas they come up with and you tout.

Why in the world does Gore have to become a destination resort in the first place? huh? IT DOESN'T! your premise is faulty. Plus, not all Gore skiers want more people there. you guys beating the drum to get more people to Gore are cutting your own throat and ours. Why in the world would you want long lift lines and crowded slopes? and don't say it wouldn't happen. you can't have it both ways(unless you're a politician). if you think their plans will bring more people then that equals crowds, case closed! and no thank you!

Why does NC deserve more attention/dollars for economic developement that any other towns in the ADKS? there's dozens of other towns that are equally if not far more sedate than NC. Why are they being discriminated against? at least NC has Gore. that's alot more than many other ADK towns!

not everybody who lives in the area wants more people there. many who live in the area do so simply because there's few people there.

now i'm gonna return serve to a dig you previously sent my way........

your blind gullibilty, your open arm embrace of any stupid idea they put forth is very, very funny! :lol: OMG! a gondi from downtown NC to Gore.......hilarious!

Meanwhile on Planet Earth..... I did propose an original idea to help NC businesses. it's in the suggestion box thread. it's practicle, informative, cost effective and stands a good chance at generating more business. the businesses and NC themselves could do a much better job at advertising their wares. this is the first step in any business.

[x10003q]

[quote="x10003q"]


this is all way off, imo. there is no grand conspiracy. i really think things are being managed to develop all the facilities.

any investment made at WF is made in parallel at gore....in fact, rumor has it WF lost some funding for lookout to help gore with burnt ridge/ski bow. anyway, ORDA is a REGIONAL development authority....good luck getting high-speed quads and fancy gondolas AND cheap lift tix without ORDA/NY state.

regarding the conference center, LP has a history of hosting conferences and it would make no sense to have such a facility in NC. the conference facilities are part of an overall plan to advance all of the assets of ORDA. ORDA has no mandate to generally benefit NC or LP. its job is to promote the facilities under its management.

"this is all way off, imo. there is no grand conspiracy. i really think things are being managed to develop all the facilities."

Conspiracy means in secret. Watch the meeting where Lussi and Weibrect attack the already planned and funded installation of the ski bowl triple. It is no secret. Their delaying tactics could have put the install out 1 year further which places more financial pressure on Front Street(the ski bowl developers who could directly compete with the Lussi/Weibrect properties). These two own 2 of the largest lodge/hotels in downtown LP. It is no secret where their interests lie.

"any investment made at WF is made in parallel at gore....in fact, rumor has it WF lost some funding for lookout to help gore with burnt ridge/ski bow."

Why are the 2 ski areas running parallel investments? Gore always had a Gondola and now WF has one. The Top Ridge triple (used from WF)was supposed to be a HSQ. The NYS constitution limits WF to 25 miles of trails and limits Gore to 40 miles of trails so quite obviously Gore will have way more skiing than WF. As for the funding rumor, in today's ski market I doubt that any major ski area (other than MRG's $1.45 million update to its single) would install a 6100 linear foot/1432vert foot fixed grip lift to service expert terrain.

"anyway, ORDA is a REGIONAL development authority"

The name does not match the actions. The over the years most of the board members rep the region of LP.

"good luck getting high-speed quads and fancy gondolas AND cheap lift tix without ORDA/NY state. "

You mean like Okemo and Stratton and even Sugarbush? These 3 get no funding from any state agencies and yet they all are loaded with high speed lifts + top snowmaking cover. By the way, Gore and and especially WF lift ticket prices are very close to these 3 areas.

"regarding the conference center, LP has a history of hosting conferences and it would make no sense to have such a facility in NC. the conference facilities are part of an overall plan to advance all of the assets of ORDA. ORDA has no mandate to generally benefit NC or LP. its job is to promote the facilities under its management"

I understand that currently NC would not benefit from a conference center. I was just pointing out the amount of $ that flows to LP. By the way the conference center is not "sports venue". If there was a decent market for conferences, maybe this facility would have been built and run by some other county/state/private group, not ORDA. I get the idea of trying to drive some of the conf business to LP, but getting to LP is not easy for anybody who has to fly. The people who benefit the most from this will be the overnight accommodation people like Lussi and Weibrect. ORDA is based in LP, the Olympic facilities are around LP, and many of its board members have vested interest in LP. In 2007-2008 ORDA lost about $15 million from operations of all the facilities including both ski areas. I have not seen Gore and WF profitablitiy broken out. I am sure the other facilities cost more to operate than they bring in. All of these venues are in LP the including jobs, food and bev revenue, overnight lodging revenue, etc. The profit from Gore goes to support these other facilities that are all located in LP while Gore has to send Mike Pratt to LP to beg ORDA for monies already earmarked for Gore.

[Snowballs]

i gotta agree w/3q. ORDA does seem to favor Placid/Face. this is how it will remain. and yes Pratt did " have hat in hand " at the meeting trying to get to lift installation money released while the boys tried to "extract" money from Front Street-even though such extortion demands were never laid on anybody else-aka the boys.

also, rumor has it that the topridge chair was supposed to be the lift that was actually installed at Face....the Facelift. instead Gore got the old lift. BUT this is just a rumor. anybody know for sure?

anybody know just how Face supposedly lost Lookout money to Gore?

if the Ski Bowl truly gets going and they need mega bucks to install a interconnect Gondi to make it viable, then, in this economy, any Whiteface developement money will get flushed down the Bowl for a few years. say goodbye. that giant sucking sound may just be Hoyt's High snowmaking money getting flushed down the Bowl. then others will join me in saying ....WTF!!! Sure hope Gore has all the money they need to install snowmaking not only on the Bowl's trails, but also on the loooong interconnect trails. sure hope it's truly ski in/ski out or else it a Gondi for the Bowl. FLUSH!

[Snowballs]

boy, i don't know how Gore or Face could be operating in the red...... do they really say this? how would it be possible? they don't have to pay for any improvements they make ........doesn't the Goverment(s) give that money to them as a grant - not a loan ? their ticket prices are in sync with the private areas. their season passes maybe a bit cheaper, but that would likely be more than covered by not having to pay for any improvements. Plus, they wouldn't have to pay sales tax on anything...on major purchases that could be some coin.....fuel tax savings on already discounted fuel and possibly utilities. they would be buying their purchases off the state contracts which have substantially reduced prices. do they pay real estate or school taxes? they get plenty of patrons. neither area pays for the vast amount of water they consume for snowmaking... does West mtn. et al pay for water for snow making ? what about Federal or State income taxes....i'ld bet they don't pay either of these major costs, especially state income tax. they have many, many financial advantages over the private areas.

do they really say they come up short per anum? if so, how's that possible? where's the money going?


***EDIT*** i wonder if they ever even had a mortgage payment to make?

[mattchuck2]

(post deleted)

[Spongeworthy]

Why in the world does Gore have to become a destination resort in the first place? huh? IT DOESN'T! your premise is faulty. Plus, not all Gore skiers want more people there. you guys beating the drum to get more people to Gore are cutting your own throat and ours. Why in the world would you want long lift lines and crowded slopes? and don't say it wouldn't happen. you can't have it both ways(unless you're a politician). if you think their plans will bring more people then that equals crowds, case closed! and no thank you!

Why does NC deserve more attention/dollars for economic developement that any other towns in the ADKS? there's dozens of other towns that are equally if not far more sedate than NC. Why are they being discriminated against? at least NC has Gore. that's alot more than many other ADK towns!

not everybody who lives in the area wants more people there. many who live in the area do so simply because there's few people there.You hit the nail on the head for me. I like things the way they are. Gore is NOT, and will NEVER be like Killington or Stratton (if you want that kind of experience, just follow the crowds into Vermont). For the most part, local businessmen are pushing these development pipe dreams. Why? Because it MIGHT help them, but it won't help us -- the consumers/skiers. Bitch all you want, but Gore provides a unique ADK skiing experience that will be nothing but a memory if the Front Street development (a/k/a the New Yankee Stadium in the North Country) actually sees the light of day.

IIRC, during the Mike Pratt hat-in-hand ORDA meeting, someone said that Gore would have been in the black if the State had not cut $1.5 million from their appropriation (the life-blood of any state-related entity). Get used to that. Gore and Whiteface were lucky to get what they got when they got it. They're both walking a tightrope. That's why the daily lift ticket price is not as competitive as it used to be, but also why they didn't raise the full season pass rate this year. All this talk about new lifts or gondolas is absurd. IF THE $$$ HASN'T BEEN APPROPRIATED, IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!! Just be happy that they're gonna install snowmaking on Sagamore this year.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

puddles........why do i have to have a plan for Gore/NC? just because i don't believe any old BS idea that comes along? but if you insist.......here's one for the Gullibles.......how about they close the road to Gore and force people to go to NC? then install a teleporter to access the mtn. they could even go whole hog and install a port to a Worm Hole and thus become the World's first " Gateway to another Galaxy!", which is where some people seem to be living anyway.

or give everybody that goes to NC $1000. that's sure to be far more effective in bringing people into NC and probably far cheaper than the other ideas they come up with and you tout.




sarcasm isn't an argument, or a way to be convincing. it's way too easy to sit back and bitch about everything like an 80-year old hermit shut-in.

you really think the 8-person gondola, HSQ and new terrain was installed with the intention to otherwise preserve the quaint gore of old? get real. skiing is a big business these days, and either you adapt and develop or you slowly wither away (ski big tupper part deux?). the other areas you mention, like stratton, sugarbush and killington, have one major asset going for them that gore doesn't: real estate. that's where they money is that funds on-mountain development like state-of-the-art snowmaking and lifts.

helping NC develop brings money and jobs to the region (good) and increases revenue for gore (good for gore and for ORDA).

you're right, though, gore doesn't *need* modern amenities, but, increased skier visits suggests the public likes the improved product. if you want things to "stay the same" so you don't get liftlines (and, really, with the size of the place and the great lifts, what lines?), maybe you should go ski west, magic or re-open hickory hill).

[Snowballs]

sarcasm isn't an argument, or a way to be convincing. it's way too easy to sit back and bitch about everything like an 80-year old hermit shut-in.


Au Contraire....i happen to be carrying my end of the debate very effectively. not only am i supported by evidence, common sense and logic, the Post Star articles are bearing me out.

http://www.poststar.com/articles/2009/05/28/news/local/14831711.txt

http://www.poststar.com/articles/2009/05/27/news/local/14827114.txt

for the Railroad operators to say they need Goverment built gift shops at the Hadley and Thurman stations or they won't go there is a ridiculous red herring. why? they already have gift shops at Riparius AND North Creek. so how are gift shops every ten miles gonna help? there's only so much trinkets people will buy. forcing people to disembark every ten miles to parade thru gift shops will be annoying. Plus having two more shops would actually increase costs for the line (more employees, utilities, etc) it would be more effeciently handled at the already existing Riparius station and NC gift shops. Besides, the train Operators were aware of what was being built at Hadley/Thurman and coulda spoke up before. No, i see the house of cards collapsing and those involved are scrambling for cover. there will be more pleas for Government subsidized profits in the future. Flush!

People here in Warren county, home of Gore and the failroad, are starting to see thru BS and are getting outright mad. the county is slashing employees, real people's jobs, real services lost, while these goofy ideas are proving to be abject failures, now and in the future.

in regards to your "it's too easy to sit back and bitch" remark.....it's issues and problems that i'm pointing out and supporting w/evidence, a perfectly legitement option. if you don't like the fact that your chosen position is weak and failing then you need to take that up with yourself.

not long ago, you asked where's my idea to help NC. even though it's not incumbent upon me to supply ideas to them.....i had already submited a very practicle, cost effective and most likely a business generating idea for NC. it's merits were obvious, easy to see. It's in the suggestion box thread.

WHERE'S YOUR IDEA PUDDLES?

Or were you refering to yourself as the 80 year old shut in Hermit who justs sits back and bitches about everything? taking the easy route?

Originality, cost effectiveness and potentail count. Got any of that?

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

Au Contraire....i happen to be carrying my end of the debate very effectively. not only am i supported by evidence, common sense and logic, the Post Star articles are bearing me out.



lol. dude, you are hilarious....you gotta take your routine out on the road.

[Snowballs]

boy, i don't know how Gore or Face could be operating in the red...... do they really say this? how would it be possible? they don't have to pay for any improvements they make ........doesn't the Goverment(s) give that money to them as a grant - not a loan ? their ticket prices are in sync with the private areas. their season passes maybe a bit cheaper, but that would likely be more than covered by not having to pay for any improvements. Plus, they wouldn't have to pay sales tax on anything...on major purchases that could be some coin.....fuel tax savings on already discounted fuel and possibly utilities. they would be buying their purchases off the state contracts which have substantially reduced prices. do they pay real estate or school taxes? they get plenty of patrons. neither area pays for the vast amount of water they consume for snowmaking... does West mtn. et al pay for water for snow making ? what about Federal or State income taxes....i'ld bet they don't pay either of these major costs, especially state income tax. they have many, many financial advantages over the private areas.

do they really say they come up short per anum? if so, how's that possible? where's the money going?


***EDIT*** i wonder if they ever even had a mortgage payment to make?

well, no input? it's makes me curiuos when things don't add up, as listed above. here's a link that shows that Gore gets improvement money as GRANTS - not loans. this is a huge advantage over privately run ski areas. Gore/Face should not operate in the red. with grants to pay for improvemnets, and the many other reasons i listed above, i also question if/why they would need yearly State money for their budgets. think how well off you'ld be if you didn't pay taxes or mortgage costs, got large discounts on purchases and received grants to make improvements.

not bashing. just pointing out a large anomoly that directly effects us.

http://www.poststar.com/articles/2006/12/21/sports/local/247458.txt


and here's yet another refutation of " someone " on here who refuses to acknowledge obvious truths even when confronted with hard evidence.

http://www.poststar.com/articles/2002/08/08/news/local/29587.txt http://www.poststar.com/articles/2002/08/17/opinion/letters/30723.txt

in these articles you'll see others- some public officials- pointing out inequities between Face and Gore, ala preferentail treat for Face. this is how it will remain. i'm not sure it even bothers me-so far. i'm just keeping it real..... x10003q was right.

i did think it interesting that Pratt chose the "no comment" route. he coulda tried to deny it.

[x10003q]

Thanks for the acknowledgements. I am a huge fan of Gore. I have been skiing at Gore for the last 23 years. I only invoke Statton and the other Vt ski areas as a point of comparison. I do not want Gore to turn into Stratton. However, I do not think the Front Street Dev. will turn Gore into Stratton. Having ski in/ski out at Gore will increase the daily base of skiers at Gore every day of the week. I think the mountain can handle way more skiers before there is crowding because the parking is limited. Adding 200-300 units to an area that is lacking beds will not overcrowd Gore. Also, until it is built, Front Street is just somebody's dream. There are a lot of incomplete and failed developments around NC.

Here are some numbers from the ORDA financials that are posted here:
http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/annual_report.php

2007-2008 season
Gore 238,467 skier visits $8,104,141 revenue
WF 214,108 skier visits $8,052,833 revenue
There is some kind of accounting for season pass use.
In the audited financial report from 2007, it is reported that WF is responsible for generating 29% of ORDA revenue and Gore is resposible for 23% of ORDA revenue. I think WF generates more money in the summer (mt biking, gondola rides, the road to the top of WF). Costs are not broken out for individual venues. The general consensus at Gore is that Gore is usually profitable and WF is not. I do not think the other venues (maybe the ice rinks) are profitable either. This leads to the opinions that Gore is used as a cash cow to support the other venues.

The Top Ridge Triple was a tough decision for Gore. I think that lift remains uncrowded because the ride is too long for the terrain. The long flat right off the triple to get to the steeper sections is a bummer. I am usually good for a few rides, but I get bored with the trails. If it was a high speed lift I would stay there longer.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the Winter Park Ski Train as an example for the train to Gore. Snowballs has it right about the train, after 69 years the Winter Park Ski Train will no longer be operating. It made its final run at the end of March and all the equipment was sold. The web site says it operated at a loss for the last 21 years. I use rail to commute to NYC. Since 9/11, my wife uses rail to go up to Boston and down to Wash DC. These rail systems might not 'make money', but they move a lot of people out of cars. The less pople on the road at rush hour the better. A ski train seems to be too much of a hard sell.
http://www.skitrain.com/

[Harvey44]

Nice work on the Post Star archives SB. Love reading that stuff.


I am a huge fan of Gore.

Me too.

I've heard a lot of smack on Gore. X...would love to hear you elaborate on this. Maybe it's another thread..."What do you like about Gore?"

Also if you feel like sharing...what's the screen name mean?

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

The general consensus at Gore is that Gore is usually profitable and WF is not. I do not think the other venues (maybe the ice rinks) are profitable either. This leads to the opinions that Gore is used as a cash cow to support the other venues.



I'd be surprised if this is the case....With similar revenue, Gore needs more snowmaking (more terrain, less snow, warmer temps) and probably has other higher fixed costs (lifts, personnel), so it seems that there's no way Gore makes more profit than WF.

Just pure speculation, of course. But, so is citing the "general consensus".

Anyway, overall, for fans of WF and Gore, I think ORDA is doing a good job. Sure, I'd want lower daily ticket prices for friends, etc., but the season pass prices are a steal, IMHO.

[Danzilla]

Bummer to hear about the snow train in Denver. Never rode it but I knew of its existence. I just rode the LIRR from penn station to Montauk for a weekend with some friends and I loved it. The ride cost me $15 and it was only 3 hours. On a friday afternoon the ride would have taken me 4-5 easy and I was able to put back a few cold ones on the way. Too bad a train to NC would be neither fast nor cheap. I like the enthusiasm but I think there are much better ways to spend money.

Interesting threads about WF and Gore. Last time I checked WF only has one high speed detachable quad and a gondola? Gore now has two high speed detachables and a Gondola (granted one of them is from 1983:). If I were a WF regular I would probably be pissed that lookout didn't get a high speed lift. They could certainly use one up to the summit too. That is a long slow ride on a bitter day. Not defending anyone's money decisions at ORDA but I don't think the disparity between the two areas is that great - at least not these days. I also vote for the plastic wind shields that they have out west at least on a few lifts (ADK express and BRQ come to mind). They would really be nice on a windy day and would cut down on the gondi line.

D

[Snowballs]

I also vote for the plastic wind shields that they have out west at least on a few lifts (ADK express and BRQ come to mind). They would really be nice on a windy day and would cut down on the gondi line.
D

yep. now THERE'S A GOOD IDEA! especially if the shield could be left up on nice days.....to enjoy the view and watch the skiers.

i talked to a Gore employee once who said he got stuck on the ADK express during a break down on one of those really cold, windy days for 3-4 hours. he said he thought he was gonna die.

you're right. it would cut down on the gondi traffic and it would help the Park Rats.

[x10003q]

Harvey 44- my name is just some letters and numbers that are easy for me to remember. I have heard a lot of interesting stuff in my years at Gore. Maybe you should start the thread :lol:

Mud Puddles- If WF made any profit it would be on every ORDA report.

Lussi made a sarcastic comment on how much it cost to run the new Lookout area at WF this past season when they were talking about how much it would cost to run the ski bowl area at Gore. I think it is very expensive to make snow on the upper trails at WF. Cloudspin and Skyward go from about 2550 ft to 4486 ft above sea level. Those 2 trails are 150 ft wide and very exposed. You also have to pump the water up from the Ausable (about 1200 ft above sea level). Lookout tops out at 4000 feet. I do not think WF has a resevoir, but I am not sure. No resevoir means when they make snow it comes directly from the Ausable. Also, most of the trails face east.

At Gore, as we all know, the best snow on faces north (High Peaks/Dark Side and the North Side). They rarely blow snow on the North Side. Gore takes water from the Hudson (1000 ft above sea level) and sends it to the resevoir below the north quad at about 2100 ft above sea level. The top of Gore is only 3600 ft, well below the 4386 at WF. The only trails that are badly exposed are Fairview and the wide trail just below the Saddle Lodge where Cloud runs into Sunway. Twister is very wide, but it has wind protection from Burnt Ridge and it starts below 3000 ft. It might be cheaper to blow snow at Gore even with the larger acreage. Gore also runs lean midweek. I have been there mid week in early March when the only Sunway, Top Ridge, Straightbrook, and the Gondola are running. There is nothing like taking a midweek vacation at Gore and finding 1/3 to 1/2 of the mountain closed for your full price lift ticket. :shock:

Of course I could be wrong. :D

Danzilla- I used to do the LIRR out to Hampton Bays (from NYC)on the weekends. When I first started going out there(1987) the trains did not have AC. The worst part was the change in Jamaica. If you were waiting on the wrong part of the platform you had to stand for the whole sweaty ride. Eventually by the mid 1990s I was riding on double deckers that had plenty of seats and AC. What a change. This is an example of where trains work.

I too always hoped to try the Winter Park train. The train goes through about 28 tunnels.

Mt St Anne in Quebec has a HSQ with the wind shield. It can be a life saver. I was up there one weekend in March and the high for the day was -10F. The place was packed. The Canadians are hardy people.

[Snowballs]

well, hold up a minute on the......ORDA treating Gore and Whiteface equally thing.

i just found this inequity while checking the pass price deadline. thru june 12.....

Gore $399 gets you a MIDWEEK non holiday Gore only ski pass.
Whiteface $399 gets you a non holiday Face only ski pass.

see the difference? it's very substantial! esp. if you work Monday - Friday. wtf! that's not cool! i only buy my family Full season passes. but this difference in ski days for $399 pass buyers is not fair! period!

Harv... aka Mr. Gore....please start that thread 3q mentioned. HPD, please make it a sticky. one for Face, too. over time much info and many memories will be added. a wealth of info! it will be way cool! people will dig it and many will post on it. Remember this...... or did you know..... or one time, this happened...

my impression of that Lussi comment 3q mentioned was that it seemed more like an obstacle he wanted to lay down to justify delaying the Bowl lift install and shake down Front Street vs a serious $$$ problem w/lookout. not sure, just my impression.

i also read recently in an old Post Star article that the agreement on the Bowl has the Town paying for the Lift electricity, etc. so Pratt's figures don't include that. gotta double check. i've found some other odd stuff that i'll post later. gotta double check. dosvedonya.

[I:)skiing]

The NEWS ENTERPRISE talks about the long term plans of gondi loading at the train station.....read the article "hidden North Creek" page two.




http://issuu.com/denpubs/docs/ne_06-06-09/1?mode=a_p