Judge Tosses Lawsuit

[adkskier]

Judge tosses ski trail suit
Case by group that made filing lacked meric, says court
By NICK REISMAN
reisman@poststar.com
Friday, July 17, 2009 11:06 AM EDT

NORTH CREEK -- A lawsuit filed by an environmental group over proposed construction at Gore Mountain was rejected by a state Supreme Court judge, according to a decision announced this week.

The suit, filed in December by the Saranac Lake-based Residents’ Committee to Protect the Adirondacks, challenged the state-owned ski resort’s plans to build eight ski trails and four gondolas that it will connect it to the Historic North Creek Ski Bowl.

The suit named the Adirondack Park Agency, the state Department of Environmental Conservation and the Olympic Regional Development Authority as defendants.

The group claimed the approval of the construction was "arbitrary, capricious, and an abuse of discretion," according to court documents.

But in a decision dated July 13, state Supreme Court Judge Michael C. Lynch wrote that those charges lacked merit.

Despite arguments from the group, Lynch wrote that " ... the improvements to state-owned lands are within the constitutional limitations. Contrary to petitioners’ thesis, the impact of such improvements on the surrounding non-state-owned land is not an unconstitutional ‘commercialization’ of forest preserve lands simply because a positive economic impact is expected from the result."

John Caffry, a Glens Falls attorney who represented the environmental group, was not available for comment Thursday afternoon.

Calls to the Residents’ Committee to Protect the Adirondacks were not returned.

Gore Mountain Ski Resort General Manager Mike Pratt said he was pleased with the decision.

"We felt that this decision by the judge was the right decision because the planning process was very open," Pratt said. "We weren’t seeking variances to our land-use classifications, and the developments were within the scope of what we were allowed and actually asked to do."

Pratt said the project was supported by local officials with the hope it would increase tourism revenue in the area.

"Certainly, if some of the side benefits of this are economic development, we feel those are good things also," Pratt said.

[I:)skiing]

Perhaps this was the reason there has been no construction in the new ski bowl development.

[adkskier]

Construction has more likely been delayed by economic reality. the Gore expansion has been well under way all summer. Given the 2 year build cycle planned by Gore, the interconnect won't be in use until the 2010-11 season. This makes investment in a ski on/ski off home even less attractive currently. Meanwhile other developers in the area are getting a jump and will offer some really interesting properties.

[Snowballs]

i read in the Ski Bowl Village plans on the web site that they are to be breaking ground this summer. wanna bet they don't?

while i don't wanna always be negative on these plans....... the post star article says 4 gondolas......get freegin real. who the hell dreams this tripe up? there are sooooooooo many gullible people surrounding this project, no wonder any old snake oil salesman who comes to town has a field day with them. 4 gondolas, that's laughable. the snow train lol. the gondola from downtown to Gore :lol: who the hell paid for that study/brainstorm?

before the apologetics/PR people get on here and try to poo-poo away the 4 gondolas, it was in the law suit so it's in the BS plans P.T. Barnum's selling the townfolk. OOOOH..... where's all the people who kept trying to BS me that there's no lift #14, no gondi's, blah blah yada yada .........yeah right!

P.T. Barnum was correct.........."there's a sucker born every minute.".

http://www.poststar.com/articles/2009/07/17/news/local/doc4a608e01cc1c1986603835.txt

[I:)skiing]

Yeah, the 4 gondi thing got me thinking too... But I wrote it off as a "reporter" (you can place snide tone to that word) who does not know snow from white shipping peanuts) Unless someone actually prints the "news release" for these so called reporters, they rarely listen, investigate or have someone proof their work before it goes to print....sad state.

Gondi = lift = a way to get up the mountain without walking. You know, 4 new gondi's.

Best I can think of: 1) lift 14
2) the new small lift at the ski bowl---I believe I saw one on a plan some time ago...quite small and over to the right.
3) the funny "gondi" from NC????
4) I am stuck---help me.


Or maybe I will revert back to my initial statement about reporters. Perhaps someone said....."they need money FOR a gondola" After reading his/her short hand....they wrote....4 gondolas.

[Snowballs]

^^^ :lol: :lol: :lol: ............ok, that was funny!

well said.

[x10003q]

4. Gondolas in the Hudson River - just like Venice!

or

Four gondolas in the Hudson River.

[adkskier]

How much was that bet? Trees are falling and dirt is being pushed. Ground was broken last week! I don't expect that we'll see any significant construction this year, but they have started anyway.

[quote="Snowballs"]i read in the Ski Bowl Village plans on the web site that they are to be breaking ground this summer. wanna bet they don't?/quote] :lol:

[Snowballs]

How much was that bet? Trees are falling and dirt is being pushed. Ground was broken last week! I don't expect that we'll see any significant construction this year, but they have started anyway.

a token initial " scratch up the dirt a bit......Let's take a picture! " kinda a start will get you nada.

if they actually get a lil sumpin sumpin done ......you get a cookie ! :D

like you said yourself, other developers are currently building in that area.

[Spongeworthy]

How much was that bet? Trees are falling and dirt is being pushed. Ground was broken last week! I don't expect that we'll see any significant construction this year, but they have started anyway.

a token initial " scratch up the dirt a bit......Let's take a picture! " kinda a start will get you nada.

if they actually get a lil sumpin sumpin done ......you get a cookie ! :D

like you said yourself, other developers are currently building in that area.From the News Enterprise" "[Sterling Goodspeed] said that FrontStreet was beginning their development project this week by building a road and several townhouses and a gatehouse to the property.

"Nearly a dozen or so workers were on the job Friday, Monday and Tuesday, he said, and the developers expect these initial townhouses to be complete by the end of this year."

The big question -- how much beyond the "initial townhouses" gets built in this economy? The big hotels and lodges -- I don't think so.

[adkskier]

It's a start...even in this economy and I hear that it's debt free. They need to begin someplace. Maybe this way they'll be prepared for next year when the actual lift and connection are ready.

[I:)skiing]

Townhouses to be completed by the end of the year.....while it does not say which year I would assume 2009. In Md, they take about 3 months from ground breaking to sales.



I am guessing this developer was waiting on the decision as noted or surmised by myself. I would imagine there was an injunction to stop any development until the matter was resolved.

As an aside...funny they are building town houses first.....the most profitable. Maybe a subject for another thread....draw a 200 M plan, "including some townhouses" with the sole intent to never build anything but the townhouses. Its been done before. "oops" we're out of money. Guess we can't put in the ammeneties.

http://www.denpubs.com/Articles-c-2009-07-22-60800.113116-sub_Optimism_swells_in_North_Creek_as_Ski_Bowl_Vil lage_Interconnect_move_forward.html

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

http://www.denpubs.com/Articles-c-2009-07-22-60800.113116-sub_Optimism_swells_in_North_Creek_as_Ski_Bowl_Vil lage_Interconnect_move_forward.html




snowballs.....care to comment on this quote from the article?? lol.

"A New York State Comptroller's report cites estimates that 74,000 skiers will spend about $7.4 million annually in the communities surrounding Gore Mountain when the Interconnect is operational."

[x10003q]

North Creek has a long history of unfinished communities. Pine Ridge has about 8 units out of about 60, Gore Mountain Village has about 10 units out of about 70, and Top Ridge is now building on the Pine Ridge site and has about 6 units built out of an approved 56 (all the numbers are approximate). The Preserve is unfinished. There are approvals for more building at the old airport in North Creek as well as on the Hudson River. The only finished group is the Summit with 82 units. Some units will be built at the base of the Ski Bowl, but most likely a lot less than what is approved.

This can be blamed on the economy (which is a recent but cyclical problem) and Gore's horrible (lack of) marketing of the ski area( which is a long term problem). They are pretty good at managing the nuts and bolts of the ski area but have no clue how to market the place. They have a huge ski area about 20 miles from a major highway (87) and still have no bed base. People down here in the NYC metro area still have no idea where or what Gore is. When half the mountain is closed mid week lower the price of the mid week lift ticket. If I was a random midweek skier paying full boat for half a mountain it would be the last time I skied Gore. Get a web cam. Your sister mountain has them. It is time to join the 1990s. Even with all the expansion they seem content to be a regional day trip area.

I do like the lack of crowds, but the lack of parking is responsible. I hate that they close so much of the mountain midweek.
I guess as long as they turn a profit for ORDA nothing will change.

[I:)skiing]

Ok.....looking at the map (see photo below) that is posted at the site...there is a chair lift that I had not seen before. Today I checked the SEIS website and assoc maps, it was not listed on that site, but the others (like 14) are.

The map shows a lift from what is named "new luxary hotel to golf hole number 7....or from the "center" of the community upto the flats of where the village chair and HS quad would be accessed by skiing...This would top Beaver Creek's Escalator. I tried to get a photo, but it would not turn out. SO...as I posted the "4" possible lifts that the report may have been talking about..I can answer number 4 with the new private lift. It looks to be about 1/4 the size of the current village chair.

Best I can think of: 1) lift 14
2) the new small lift at the ski bowl---I believe I saw one on a plan some time ago...quite small and over to the right.
3) the funny "gondi" from NC????
4) I am stuck---help me. SEE ABOVE or the site plan


http://www.skibowlvillage.com/index.php?id=3 You can resize to about 150% to read the map.








http://img197.imageshack.us/img197/3251/93104342.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/)

[x10003q]

That private lift will allow all of the village to be ski in/ski out. It looks like there are trails that drain to the bottom of the chair. The question is who will pay for the snowmaking and grooming and chair operation.

Mt Tremblant has a similar set-up at its main base area where there are trails to ski down to the Cabriolet from the lower accomodations in order to get back to the main lift system.

[Snowballs]

http://www.denpubs.com/Articles-c-2009-07-22-60800.113116-sub_Optimism_swells_in_North_Creek_as_Ski_Bowl_Vil lage_Interconnect_move_forward.html




snowballs.....care to comment on this quote from the article?? lol.

"A New York State Comptroller's report cites estimates that 74,000 skiers will spend about $7.4 million annually in the communities surrounding Gore Mountain when the Interconnect is operational."

Sure. that report was from a corrupt, lying, stealing Comptroller who got thrown out of office. just everyday Political BS. even if He did have integrity the statement's wording is very nebulous as is usually the case when people peddle crap to those who are gullible. like the Hucksters who got a paycheck to print up some promising reports on the amazing Snow Train and it's downtown depot/gondi to Gore. Some people are still opening wide and swallowing whole on that turd.

[mattchuck2]

All of Snowballs' posts are very similar. They're kind of like this:

Don't trust anyone! Everything is awful!! People are horrible liars! The sky is falling!!! We're all screwed!!! Aaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[mattchuck2]

Ok.....looking at the map (see photo below) that is posted at the site...there is a chair lift that I had not seen before. Today I checked the SEIS website and assoc maps, it was not listed on that site, but the others (like 14) are.

The map shows a lift from what is named "new luxary hotel to golf hole number 7....or from the "center" of the community upto the flats of where the village chair and HS quad would be accessed by skiing...This would top Beaver Creek's Escalator. I tried to get a photo, but it would not turn out. SO...as I posted the "4" possible lifts that the report may have been talking about..I can answer number 4 with the new private lift. It looks to be about 1/4 the size of the current village chair.

Best I can think of: 1) lift 14

Would they call it lift #14 if it was a "private" lift? They seem to take special care to list the other lifts on that map as "ORDA" lifts (which, I assume, would have regular numbers). But I don't think they'd assign a number to a lift that might be staffed and run by the developer (like a "private" lift would be).

[Snowballs]

All of Snowballs' posts are very similar. They're kind of like this:

Don't trust anyone! Everything is awful!! People are horrible liars! The sky is falling!!! We're all screwed!!! Aaahhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11

There you go again.

Everything i said in that post happens to be true. you got something against the truth Matt ? Havesi was a corrupt, lying, stealing Comptroller who was removed from office by a conviction in a Criminal Court and not by some parlimentery or voter procedure. It's informative that you take guidance from sources like him.

Also, in the "Forum for sale thread" i was the only one who said thanks to Greg for providing the forum for us and asked if there was anything we could do to help him. where was your gratitude and offer of assitance Mr. High and Mighty ? Ditto on my post suggesting we E-mail kudos etc to Jay Rand.

last fall, when i suggested Cedars would be flat you huffed and puffed claiming it wasn't and tried to chide me. same thing with lift # 14. you kept telling me it didn't exist and gave me sass about it. those times and yet here once again, you are wrong.

You can swallow any old bull you want. just be careful. It may leave a bad taste in your mouth.

[Spongeworthy]

Havesi was a corrupt, lying, stealing Comptroller who was removed from office by a conviction in a Criminal Court and not by some parlimentery or voter procedure. It's informative that you take guidance from sources like him.Hevesi was corrupt, but only as far as matters that lined his pockets. I doubt he had any incentive to fudge his projections about North Creek because there wasn't any payoff for him.

I also doubt that Hevesi had much of a direct hand in the report. There are a lot of employees in the Comptroller's office who were there long before Hevesi, and are still there, who take their jobs seriously and put in an honest day's work (hard to believe, but true :shock: ).

BTW, I don't work there.

[Snowballs]

which brings us to the nebulous part. "Cites estimates of" is just that, estimates. mere speculation. proves nothing. " a friend of a friend who's third cousin saw someone on vacation that said..........".

besides there no sources named or it may have just been a sound byte comment. i'm just saying it's hardly concrete verification of anything.

and really, since when did Gov. predictions of costs and benefits cross into the realm of statistical credibility? 8)

[I:)skiing]

Matt----Lift 14 is ORDA...in my post and others we were wondering how the reporter found "4 new lifts" I guessed at 3 but couldnt't come up with a 4th. The private lift that I just found on the listed map....must be number 4, assuming my other 3 guesses are right.

Lift 14 is clearly marked on the map.
The new HS quad is as well. this is two.
The Gondi from downtown---three (see another thread and link I posted for this vision)
the new private lift from the luxary hotel to hole 7.


x1000---I assume Gore is going to blow snow and maintain. I read somewhere in the 1000s of pages that the developer "annexed" the land (his land) to Gore for skiing, and while the developer would be paying for at least the HS quad...it would become the property of Gore. I am guessing since the thing I read failed to comment or mention the "private" lift, it will stay in the hands of the developer, which is fine by me, I really dont care. Its his money that he is investing--could be a her too I guess. If it breaks, I guess the hotel will have to fix it.


Another huge investment at a ski area is Wisp, near Cumberland, Md. They installed a very long fix grip quad over essentially flat terrain at the top of the mountain...why? Million dollar log homes with a lake view. Ski in/ski out.

[mattchuck2]

Everything i said in that post happens to be true. you got something against the truth Matt ? Havesi was a corrupt, lying, stealing Comptroller who was removed from office by a conviction in a Criminal Court and not by some parlimentery or voter procedure. It's informative that you take guidance from sources like him.

Also, in the "Forum for sale thread" i was the only one who said thanks to Greg for providing the forum for us and asked if there was anything we could do to help him. where was your gratitude and offer of assitance Mr. High and Mighty ? Ditto on my post suggesting we E-mail kudos etc to Jay Rand.

last fall, when i suggested Cedars would be flat you huffed and puffed claiming it wasn't and tried to chide me. same thing with lift # 14. you kept telling me it didn't exist and gave me sass about it. those times and yet here once again, you are wrong.

You can swallow any old bull you want. just be careful. It may leave a bad taste in your mouth.

I'm just saying, you seem to stress about a lot of things. It might be better for your health if you relaxed a little. For instance, who cares if they spend an extra however many million dollars for a lift to nowhere? Does that really affect you personally? If you're on a waste finding mission in the State Budget, I got news for you, there's a lot more wasteful projects than a lift at Gore. And Cedars was flatter than I thought it would be. So what? You were freaking out about it like it was the end of the world. A couple of skates and I was there. I even made it without skating a few times after I took the goat trail over from Twister. Chill out, man. Whatever Gore does, it's not the end of the world (I hate to say it, but even the paid parking thing isn't the end of the world).


Matt----Lift 14 is ORDA...in my post and others we were wondering how the reporter found "4 new lifts" I guessed at 3 but couldnt't come up with a 4th. The private lift that I just found on the listed map....must be number 4, assuming my other 3 guesses are right.

Lift 14 is clearly marked on the map.
The new HS quad is as well. this is two.
The Gondi from downtown---three (see another thread and link I posted for this vision)
the new private lift from the luxary hotel to hole 7.

Yeah, you're right. I'm sorry, I misread your post.

[I:)skiing]

A lift that short is quite an expense to operate. Depending on staffing models for safety (you better darn well be at your safest with rich folks and their kids riding a private lift) you need:

2 at the bottom
1 at the top

For every hour of lift operation, plus 2 extra hours of digging and preping.

Start getting the VISAS in order, or that "housing" deal looks pretty sweet for someone just getting out of HS and bumming for the winter. It could also be a nice "in" to those employees looking to hook up with a big hotel chain....working the way up. I would have done it (had I opened my eyes or 'known' about stuff like this 30 yrs ago).

[Snowballs]

that short lift to hole # 7 maybe like the lift at Kid's Kampus and like you said, serve to bring better ski in/ ski out capability to additional homes.

[I:)skiing]

http://www.skibowlvillage.com/index.php?id=pictures


A few photos show the new lift from about mid way up....steep :)


Photos also show that they are about ready, if not already, to pave. Gravel down, graded, compacted. This contractor is not messing around.

On another note the new townhouse development off Peaceful valley---facing Gore, is rocking. That developer is not sparing much expense either. Looks like they are planning to fully build all they got within the next year. Everything is graded, retaining walls(boulder style) going in now. Those places are NICE. The taxes those places will pull in more money than downtown combined.

[I:)skiing]

If you go on now, you will see they are serious about something......looks like they will be in pavement upto the townhomes before the asphalt plant shuts down. Gravel and graded, water, sewer lines in, hydrants----done.


If they do not have the foundation of the TH poured in 2 weeks, don't think the ambitious idea that one set of THs will be ready by Christmas.