Snowmaking

[Lbtchnlgs]

So they're hoping for Saturday, if not Sunday..

Guns are working hardest on Jamboree! WOO!!!!!

[Harvey44]

I couldn't get Denison to rename his thread "The Official Snowmaking Thread 09/10."

So I'm going to use Chris's thread. Here's my blog entry from today. It's a mishmosh of stuff ... it's about snowmaking as much as anything:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2009/12/gore-mtn-ny-12709.html

[Denison]

As of this moment 6-10 day temperature prediction picture looks awesome.

[Harvey44]

Does anyone have details about what the issues are with the snowmaking system? I heard a snowmaker say they aren't blowing upper mtn because of technical problems .... but that's all I know. Website has been mum about plans.

[Snowballs]

It was weird being there yesterday and not one gun going on the summit. Fact, there weren'/haven't been many going anywhere, as Jimmer previously noted. I'm not sure if Pine Knot has even been blown at all. I remember looking at Rumor and wondering when, if...... i have seen mist rising from guns on Headwaters. Last season, they were able to have many guns going at once around the hill and Pratt even mentioned at an Orda meeting their abilty to blow more of the Mtn simultanously. Maybe there's not enough pressure to lift water to the summit. Somebody on Facebook suggested a lack of air pressure....Jimmer? That would explain the very limited amount of guns going. Gore people, including JFTJ, would likely keep any system problems VERY close to the vest. if there is a issue, which there definitely seems to be, then thank God for Topridge. With the holiday season here....this weekend ?.....the Mtn is in very poor shape for the masses! Won't they be unhappy with that AND Gold Parking. The only storm approaching is a Bitchfest. To be fair, the cause of this situation MAYBE something beyond Gore's control.

[JC7727]

It was below zero this morning? Where they hitting the mountain hard? Probably not.....

[nyspnypd]

I know the newer guns and compressors and pumps are more computerized could it just be a simple computer issue?

[Denison]

What's the point to have all that improved snow-making capabilities and not use it?

Unbelievable :x

[Danzilla]

It looked like they were blowing pine knot last weekend. Didn't see anything on Tannery or up top.

[Harvey44]

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2008/12/gore-snowmaking-update.html

Facebook is saying Chatiemac too.

[Spongeworthy]

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2008/12/gore-snowmaking-update.html

Facebook is saying Chatiemac too.Good news. Thanks Harv.

[Denison]

What do you think folks, will they open Echo for Christmas weekend ? Twister ?

[Spongeworthy]

What do you think folks, will they open Echo for Christmas weekend ? Twister ?Not without some help from Mother Nature

[Snowballs]

ditto. if they can't get they snow system out of limp mode, it will be awhile before stuff is open.

[Lbtchnlgs]

They were hitting the lower mountain hard yesterday. Blowing on twister, (upper). Topridge was getting hammered... Not too sure why though looks like it could have been open w/o anymore snowmaking..

Showcase is top to bottom, they opened it yesterday morning, the lower half was very very very fun. a little dust on crust them some sweet MM powder sand. Last headwal was bega fun, you could jump 3/4 down it, also great to rip some nice turns in.

It was COLD yesterday, kept lots of people off the mountain and it skiied great. I heard that it was a compressor issue. Rumor looks like it doesn't need that much snow making. Chati/Hawk look like they could probably open, but with natural terrain I don't see it happening for more than a day.

[Denison]

^^^ Finally some Good news. Thank You.

[Lbtchnlgs]

Not a prob, would have reported earlier but I didn't have time before heading into work last night.

So yeah, the whole lower mountain looks like it'll be open over to twister.

The terrain park had a couple more little rails

[Snowballs]

They may be pounding TR cuz they can't hit the summit and figure to lay down the lower mtn hard in the mean time.

Many prolly hope BR aka Sags gets open before long.

Better call the Shaman and bribe him to do the snow boogy.

[kornfein]

Last Saturday they making a lot of snow Pine Knot, Tannery, Lower Sleighride, Stokes and Sunway below the Sunway chair and a few other random guns. This was more than I'd seen in the past. On Monday they were making snow on Showcase, Pine Knot and Tannery, but then it got above freezing and they had to turn the guns off. Looks like they are opening the entire front before moving to the summit or Burnt Ridge.

[Lbtchnlgs]

"Hi Chris, They're on Hawkeye, Cloud, & Headwaters right now, all of which are anticipated open for tomorrow."


**They updated their webpage mid-day to show Tannery and the Knot was now open**

There's a first for everything :)

[jimmer]

did see sno makin on hawk eye today,they were just about 3/4 of the way down when i left,,,they blew on fox lair,but couldnt open it cause it was too dangerous,it was from wet guns then they groomed it,made it worse,should b better tomorrow.got into the woods a bit ,not too bad,kil care care is going too b awsome with sum more snow,blowin on wild air,it was ok,where the guns wernt wet,rest of what was open was good.,,should b a good weekend,,,so go get it,,,

on a side note,,,friends lake was frooze over,so thats where ill b,,,fishin,,,oh i have free parking there.

[jimmer]

tuesday,,,, the snow they blew on chatimac was awsome,still had guns going on the lower half,they were starting on lies,about half way down when i left,guns on lower cloud,and sum over on the north side,wood in i think.twas a good day.

[Snowballs]

People have been saying (Facebook, etc.) that Gore has poor snowmaking in general. Is this true ? I don't have much to compare it to other than Face and West. West definitely seems to do a better job than Gore, but until this year, i've skied West very, very little. Will keep tabs on it. This year, i'll ski West more as i also got a midweek nonholiday pass there.

I know I said it before, but Pratt was bragging last year on how Gore could now " blow alot more of the Mtn at once ". Well Pratt, where is it ?

Can anybody speak as to their experience with other Mtns compared to Gore's NOmaking?*




* I think i coined a new phrase!.....Gore's NOmaking! hehehe. I like it. It's fitting.

[rossi]

you dont even need to go to the mountains to compare the snowmaking. just look at some other mountains ski reports. give me a min and ill run thru a few sites and post them up.

[rossi]

mt snow: 78
stratton: 89
killington: 125
okemo: 112
pico: 50......100%open
whiteface: 56
gore: 48

those were the mountains that popped into my head the fastest. theres a couple other mountains i could do like jay sugarloaf sunday river and MRG but they all get a lot more natural snow than the ones listed above.

[Snowballs]

Thanks Rossi! Those figures do say alot. Gore's NOmaking is at the bottom. Way to go Gore ! I bet West has way better snow too.

DO NOT FORGET!!!....

Unlike those other mtns, except Face, Gore pays no income tax, no sales tax, no local tax, no mortgage loans, no improvements loans, discounted utilities, etc. These are very huge costs other resorts have to pay and they STILL have a better product than Gore. Sad. Gore oughta have plenty of cash for snowmaking. PLENTY! Gore certainly shouldn't be in the basement.

Hey...It just started snowing!!! Bring it on Harv!!! I know you'll be righteously bummed if we get snow when you have to return to NJ, but consider the rest of us dude....and your B-day skiing!

A huge dump would make us all feel better. hehehe. :roll:

[JC7727]

to be fair, the moutains in VT have seen much more snow than Gore this year. Most VT ski areas are reporting 12-24+ inches of snow this weknd. Gore is reporting no new snow.

[jimmer]

WEB SITE REPORT FOR TOMORROW,MONDAY=4 LIFTS,27 TRAILS,IT JUST KEEPS GETTIN BETTER AND BETTER,GOTTA SAY WTF,,,,GORED AGAIN.

[adksara]

This was the rather 'snotty' Gore Mountain reply to several posts on Facebook questioning the lack of snowmaking at Gore this season.

***
"I think some of you that consider yourselves fans of Gore need to take note of some of the challenges and lack of natural snow this season has presented. We'll just take today for example, when we, and several other mountains in the Northeast are closed due to absolutely crazy winds. These winds will force snowmakers back to already-open terrain. Tuesday we had power knocked out.
That said, I know for a fact that our snowmakers, groomers, and staff are doing their absolute best for you. It hasn't been a favorite start to the season for any ski area out there, but we have so much left of the season to look forward to, lots of new improvements were made, and we will keep moving ahead!"
***

Then following this post was one from a skier who travelled to Killington today and skied; snowguns were running & lifts were chugging even with the wind. I'm getting tired of excuses from the mountain.

I like the trails, I like hiding in the woods, I really like most of the ordinary 'on-the-ground' people who are working at Gore, I just wish that management would get their head out of the clouds and be honest. Most of us are adult enough to handle it when Gore, being state run can say we've had some budget cuts or we've had equipment break down, this is what we're doing to fix it & when.

Sigh... Hickory and VT is looking better and better. Glens Falls isn't that far from the border.

[Snowballs]

Snotty seems to be the mode of Gore lately. Last week's Chronicle newspaper asked Mtn manager Mike Pratt if he had asked the Gore patrons about the Paid parking prior to it's implementation. He replied " we don't ask them for their input/ideas " ... something of that exact essence. It was rude. Especially for a State employee. He might as well of said " they can go ____ themselves.".

So, is this what they mean by their new slogan...." The Mountain That Loves You Back ".

I'm starting to come down with the Mike Pratt has to go flu.

[jimmer]

its funny to go on there fb page,i bet they wish they never started it,mostly if not all comments are bashing the place,the moderator is havin a hard time with all the negativity,or so i wood think.oh there was 1 good post about the skiing,it was from killington.well after not skiing all week,ill b back at it tomorrow.now that every one has gone back home.

[rossi]

to be fair, the moutains in VT have seen much more snow than Gore this year. Most VT ski areas are reporting 12-24+ inches of snow this weknd. Gore is reporting no new snow.


even earlier, much before this storm, those mountains had about the same trail count. and withing the first 3 weeks of opening day for each mountain, gore had 12 or so, and i remember seeing both stratton and killington at 40+. yes they do get more snow, but not that much more.

[Snowballs]

Someone on FB pointed out that Gore used to rent air compressors.
remember these? they were the big rectangle yellow(?) Tractor trailer size tanks that used to sit in C lot each year until President's week. I'm not sure if they were air compressors or compressed air storage tanks.

Anyway, is Gore not using supplemental air this year? is that what's going on?

[rossi]

hahahaha i think gore just got rid of their discussion board. unless its my facebook but i can access everything else on the page and still comment but there is no discussion section anymore. anyone else notice that or is it just me, and it definatly happened in the last hr cuz i was looking at stuff earlier.

[adkskier]

I think that the real root of the problems at Gore continues to be attitude and this attitude is a top down issue. It's quite apparent that there is a problem in the snow making system, but for some reason management chooses to deny and stonewall. If they would just put out a statement announcing that there is a broken widget that will take weeks to repair and no budget to rent a replacement widget or a tight budget that doesn't allow hiring sufficient labor, we'd all either suck it up and support them. Some skiers might move on, but many would support. Every business has problems and people make errors in judgment and mistakes. Keeping open and honest communication with Gore's loyal skiers (us!) would have gone so far. Same comments apply to the other "black eye" issues they've encountered this season. The poor communication is nothing new. There is a long history of this at Gore that pre-dates Mike. He may just be a product of his environment, but they are all facing new pressures exerted by the enhanced on-line communication like this forum and Facebook as well as more selective and demanding customers who are feeling the pressure of the current economy and want more for their money. Lastly, the mountain attitude that they announce to the employees is "customer service", but the leadership isn't "leading by example".
Anyone else notice that these are not new business concepts? It may be that the ski business has grown too complex for the skills of the current management.

[Snowballs]

Very good post ADK. The paid parking was handled very, very poorly. Last year they assured us it would be much smaller than it turned out to be. They lied. Then they blocked the whole front off and now everybody has to go all the way around possibly waiting in traffic, instead of just driving up the middle. That messes up people with families who do the drop off thing. They told these people on FB that they were working on a solution for this then just shut down the discussion with these people who were amicably trying to work with Gore thru this. They also were snotty with other people merely voiceing their concerns. It would have gone much better with some tact.

Now the snowmaking problem is following the same course. Given Gore's track record, I and others, are inclined to believe the snowmaking problem is of Gore's own doing. The prolonged nature of this NOmaking problem only reinforces that belief. Somebody at Gore screwed up or don't give a Rat's booty or is plain stiffing us to send money to Placid.

I don't buy that tripe that Gore is short of cash. That's Boob bait for the bubbas. Gore pays no Fed income tax, no State income tax or sales tax, No local/school taxes, No mortgage loan, No loans for Mtn improvements. They get discounted utilities and fuel. This list goes on and on. THESE ARE HUGE, HUGE SAVINGS!!! The other ski areas can turn out a much better product than Gore WHILE having to pay all these huge costs that Gore does not have to pay......SOMETHING IS WRONG AT GORE!!!

Gore gets more customers than Whiteface and yet Whiteface does a better job than Gore!

This arguement that Gore supports the Olympic venues is weak and getting old. The very same arguement could be applied to Whiteface. I don't see Whiteface making half of the River lot Paid Parking. I don't see Whiteface making the road to Kid's Kampus paid Parking. I don't see Whiteface making the road down to the bridge paid parking. I don't see Whiteface having very crappy NOmaking. If the Olympic venues are bleeding Gore dry, then it's time to restructure their finances and audit ORDA with a calculator and some handcuffs.

Indications point to inept mangement at Gore and/or we are just plain getting screwed. Their bad attitude is like a hammer on a sore thumb.

Beyond Facebook: Is Gore Mountain on Twitter or MySpace? I guess MySpace isn't used much. Whiteface is way better at communicating than Gore both through Facebook and Twitter. Gore paid for a new Web site and didn't think to just add a Web cam to the old Web site instead. Kind of backwards since a Web cam today is almost standard for a mountain.

[Snowballs]

Whiteface is way better at communicating than Gore both through Facebook and Twitter. Gore paid for a new Web site and didn't think to just add a Web cam to the old Web site instead. Kind of backwards since a Web cam today is almost standard for a mountain.

That speaks volumes. The newbie is very insightful.

Eric, i'm don't know if you're in Toga high school, but there's a couple of other Toga students on here.

[Denison]

Welcome to the board saratogasnowboarder.

IMO Facebook is not really essential if your business already has a dedicated website.

Besides closed Discussion board on Gore FB page, there is nothing there they cannot display on gore.com:



"Snowmakers are getting Twister ready to go, as well as hitting several trails on the lower mountain and preparing for a move to Burnt Ridge."

...so far average snowmaking is on two trails at a time, what an effort :twisted:

Actually I am 30, married to a ripping snowboarder and live in Toga. Moved up from Philly in 2002, took up snowboarding by getting a season pass at Gore since you have to embrace the winter up here. Extremely frustrated with Gore this year.

I respectfully disagree on Facebook not being necessary if you have a Web site. The idea is to bring content to the user instead of making them come to you especially now that mobile web is set to take off by 450% in 2010. Killington and Whiteface are doing an awesome job of this by providing video, images, and real time info faster than updating their Web site. I was ripping Killington on Sunday after seeing the weather forecast at 4am Sunday. At Killington, I checked my facebook on my iPhone at 10AM while my wife and I grabbed a coffee to warm up and noticed they posted that some sick pow stashes were on Snowshed with pics so I left Bear Mountain and hit some sick pow.

Sorry for the geek out regarding social media. Just disappointed with Gore this year. Shoot even Plattekill is 100% open.

[Snowballs]

Their bad attitude is like a hammer on a sore thumb.

There they go again. Someone on FaceBook asked Gore why the discussion boards were taken down. Gore replied "Unfortunately a few people had the wrong idea of why the boards were created ".

Oh really? What an insulting bunch of crap. Gore again blames it's customers for it's issues. If Gore were doing a better job, people wouldn't have to question them. Many others were posting good ideas for Gore there. The main issues on FB were the Paid Parking, the horrendous NOmaking, and the lack of a Park or it's lack progress. These are all real, persistant problems that people have a right to ask about. Not putting up proper fencing at the Park and it's entrance was stupid and dangerous. Many people came to Gore over the Holidays having no idea Gore turned a Cruiser trail into a Park and thus skied down Wild Air thru the Park. They are lucky this didn't/hasn't caused serious injury. Any injury caused by this lack of due diligence, would have been EXTREMELY actionable. Has Gore even rectified this situation yet? They were/are negligible by not having a fences, a fenced Gate entrance AND a sign informing John Q Public that they were entering a Terrain Park NOT A CRUISER. It would be real easy for a shortie to drift into a landing zone at Gore's park. Care to guess what that outcome would be? There's been many, many reports of this " nearly " happening already and the Park's only a couple weeks old.

I would have never, never opened the new Park on a Holiday week without these basic and obvious safeguards.

I'm sorry, but Mike Pratt has got to go.

[Frostillicus]

I agree with the mustachioed knuckledragger 100%. Facebook is a vital tool now for reaching out to your base customers. The way Gore has handled the situation thus far (arrogance/avoidance/secrecy) just worsens already strained relations, basically thowing fuel on the fire. I stayed out of it until the atrocious lack of snowmaking I witnessed last week. Then they blow on Uncas? Do we really need Uncas when the rest of the mountain is in such poor shape?

[TomCat]

In the past I've been told that they like to get Uncas open to take some pressure off pine knot. Pine knot does get pretty bad at times and it's listed as an intermediate. The problem in my view is that they waited until the holiday week was just about over before starting on Uncas. By then it was too late to do any good and the open trails needed the snow.

Did anyone else notice huge amounts of ice/snow in the trees near some of the guns? It seems to indicate some kind of problem.

I can't figure out why they would increase the grooming fleet and then not make the snow to groom. Is it to keep the new groomer in like new condition? I'm also wondering about the continued expansion. What's the point of additional trails and lifts if there is no snow. Wouldn't some of the capital needed for a new lift be better spent maintaining the trails they already have?

end rant

tom

[Harvey44]

Had a chance to speak with M Pratt this am. Asked him questions incl about snowmaking. Will try to post when we get home late tonite or early am.

[jmokes]

Well, this is my 1st post & all i can say is i hope someone from gore or orda reads this stuff. I'm the guy that got unfriended by gore on FB & started the "skiers against paid parking" fb group...if you haven't checked it out please do. So after severla interviews & srticles written in the chronicle, post star, north creek paper, the t.u., etc. & severla emails back & fourth with pratt, blazer, et. al. I'm at my wits end. No one seems to get it there or really care what we think. I've been commended on my passion by both pratt & ted but i guess that's as far as it goes. next step, orda meeting...

[jmokes]

Oh yeah & if you read the minutes from the December meeting Pratt goes on & on about the 35 new snow guns for better coverage, much like their website...new guns, new groomer, etc. Funny how they don't seem to have the manpower or budget or both to actually use them.

[Snowballs]

I skied West Mtn today. Their snow is alot better than what Gore has now. West has lots of cannons still going too.

Maybe the complaining on Gore's NOmaking will get them moving. I see there's a NOmaking related photo for their Picture of the day. Maybe they heard us? Keep the heat on!

[goreviper]

jmokes we appreciate your efforts and all the links and e-mail addresses you have posted on the gore skiers against paid parking fb page. Keep it up!. I watched the video of the last ORDA meeting and was impressed at how well Pratt and the board members can pat themselves on their backs and dance around their guests concerns and comments. Quite a ballet.

[Snowballs]

was impressed at how well Pratt and the board members can pat themselves on their backs and dance around their guests concerns and comments. Quite a ballet.

Yes Sir. BS. BS. BS.

Their day will come.

[ka2kci]

It seems like Gore is trying to act like a big "destination resort" mountain without actually having the management skills and numbers of properly trained staff to carry it out. How in the world are they going to be able to maintain snowmaking at Gore, Burnt Ridge, and the Ski Bowl when they can't even keep enough snow on Hawkeye and Cloud to safely ski without using your rock skis? Who would be foolish enough to buy a "ski in/ski out" home or condo at the North Creek Ski bowl when the mountain can't seem to keep their bread and butter trails sufficiently covered with man made snow? I think that the mountain has grown faster than they are capable of managing it. With all of the new instant messaging technology available such as Facebook, Twitter, and this forum, the management can no longer hide and lie to us without being called out on it. They are woefully behind the times in their management skills and it is painfully obvious to its customers. If this was a privately run corporation, the management would be fired and the place would have gone broke. Since they are a state run "Authority", there is absolutely no incentive for management to listen to their customers. All that they have to do is keep the ORDA board happy so that they can send the money to Lake Placid and keep the board members hotels full. I wish that there was a way to hold them accountable!

ORDA needs an audit from the state.

[Snowballs]

Excellent points ka2kci. Truly. It's ridiculous the way Pratt runs the hill. Yes i hold him responsible.

Purge Pratt!

[Harvey44]

I walked into Emily's office this morning on the way out of town. We talked about a variety of stuff, including a lot of the topics that are important to the hardcore skiers here on the forum. Mike came in, and sat down for about 30 minutes.

With regard to snowmaking this week, he didn't seem to be hiding anything. He didn't hesitate ... he just laid it all out without a pause.

He said that on Tuesday night, late, the power went out on the entire mountain. His words were "all 35,000 volts."

He explained that when the power goes out - on the active lines, hoses and nozzles freeze.

Apparently the snowmaking system is 90% gravity drained. Just open up the valves at the bottom and let all the water run out. Even with the late hour of the outage and the extremely cold temps they were able to drain a majority of the system.

If the nozzles, hoses etc don't freeze completely, you can run water through it, and selectively apply torches, and it will eventually clear the lines.

But if the plumbing freezes solid, all the nozzles and hoses have to be brought inside, to let them warm up. It's a huge pain in the posterior and takes a lot of time.

While he didn't say specifically, and I didn't ask, I have to assume these issues affected the summit. The area that needed snow the most and got little snowmaking this week.

He also said that when the wind is as high as it was on Tuesday and again on Sunday... snowmaking accomplishes nothing.

I did ask him if he'd been up on the Hawkeye Headwall. He'd said he'd just come from there and he knew it needed attention immediately.

* * *

There was a lot more. He explained his snowmaking philosophy and his approach to utilizing limited resources. We talked skiing, facebook, parking, lift 14, and a bunch of other stuff.

I'm going to write it up and post it on Harvey Road in the next few days.

Emily and Mike agreed to let me pose followup questions by email. I've got a list of 20 or so that I sent Emily tonight. I told her that I'd reach out to you guys to see if you could think of issues I'd missed. This forum has a whole lot of collective Gore knowledge. I respect the opinions of the posters here. If you've got input, or questions to add, please post in the comments on this thread:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/01/conversation-with-emily-and-mike.html

Thanks.

[Denison]

Harvey, the comment window at blogspot is very tricky: cannot paste no text there. When I finally typed and submitted - my comment did not appear.

I wanted to thank you for your effort.

[Frostillicus]

Thanks for the info. Harv and for taking the time to get it.

[jmokes]

Harv,

Couple of questions that are still unanswered...

why does Gore have 3x as many paid spots as whiteface
why was valet parking so readily dismissed
how much have the statewide budget cuts affected snowmaking/payroll/employee headcount
what is the exact procedure for dropping off kids in short term daycare when looking for a parking space
when will the evaluation process for the paid parking fiasco be up & what would be considered a success (to date it has only sold out 4x)

i'll think of more later...

[Snowballs]

Anybody notice Gore's concerted PR effort to get word out that they're are finally making snow? Today, they list 7+ trails being currently blown. :shock: When was the last time you saw that many ? And they're saying they're are gonna keep rolling.

Think they heard us ?

Sure would be fantastic to have Sags open for the rest of the season. Think about it. We've only had a very small tease, it's still kinda like an unplayed toy.

[Spongeworthy]

I think it's bad karma coming from Pratt's disdain for the faithful.

Why else would Killington :x get 3 feet of snow while get zip?

[jimmer]

well i saw two being blown,they started up haweye,still blowing twister,they were on stylehang,but turned those off,we snuck in there ,it sucked,nothing on br side,oh i for got there were a few guns on sun way blowing ice pellets,and they hurt.

[Harvey44]

Harvey, the comment window at blogspot is very tricky: cannot paste no text there. When I finally typed and submitted - my comment did not appear. I wanted to thank you for your effort.

Thanks Denison, Frosti, everyone.

I can't figure out the problem with the comments. Most people have no problem, but definitely some definitely do. About 30% say they can't make it work. Most of the email I get starts out with ..."I tried to comment, but couldn't figure it out...." I even tried "signing out" and commenting without admin status, but it works for me fine.

Google stuff (Blogspot) is cool because it's free, but there is zero product support.

* * *

This "conversation" project is bigger than I expected. Lots of input from skiers and a lot of cooperation and patience from Gore. Let's face it, I'm making this up as I go. E and M have been very understanding of my amateur methods/approach. I'm surprised by it to tell you the truth.

The comments on HR and the emails I'm getting reflect a lot of crankiness, but I think also down in there is a real love for Gore, and a strong desire to see Gore move forward, but still retain those things that make Gore great.

It looks like I'm going to do the conversation piece in installments. With luck I'll get the first part up tomorrow.

[Jeff]

The comments on HR and the emails I'm getting reflect a lot of crankiness, but I think also down in there is a real love for Gore, and a strong desire to see Gore move forward, but still retain those things that make Gore great.

Harv, ordinarily I'm a pretty enthusiastic Gore supporter (almost as much as you :) ), but the issues with snowmaking/conditions, Gold Parking, and the midweek terrain & lift closures have definitely got me feeling a bit cranky, as comes through in my comment on Harvey Road.

Thanks for acting as a liaison. We shall see what the response is from Gore.

[Snowballs]

The comments on HR and the emails I'm getting reflect a lot of crankiness, but I think also down in there is a real love for Gore, and a strong desire to see Gore move forward,

Absolutely. If they ever get it together and truly fix Nomaking, truly complete the Terrain Park and kinda sorta do something? with Parking, it would be xoxoxo and all Happy! Happy! again.



But that's a big if.

They may have no choice. In this age, independent word travels fast and can be a force to be reckoned with. Take special notice of the last 4 paragraphs in this article mentioned by some here earlier. It mirrors what's been happening here.


Study: Ski Resorts Tell Tale Tales

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=122084539&sc=fb&cc=fp%20

[Harvey44]

I learned a ton about Gore Snowmaking today. I wanted to write it all down asap so I didn't forget it.

An answer to the question - why does Gore blow on two trails at a time:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/01/mike-pratt-on-gore-snowmaking.html

[Snowballs]

An answer to the question - why does Gore blow on two trails at a time:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/01/mike-pratt-on-gore-snowmaking.html

Then what's this answer.......Gore says tonight that they are blowing on 7 trails. :?: How would one reconcile that to Harv's " 2 trails only snowmaking " post?

Advertise snowmaking on 7 trails ( and only blow 2 :wink:). That's kinda what they've been doing.

If fact, they've been saying for days they were blowing on more trails than they actually were. They've been saying for three days they would be moving to Echo and it hasn't been visible....only one lonely gun for awhile today towards Echo's very beginning. That's snowmaking? Echo will open for experts only with.....no base and only scant natural ? That should be interesting. People were expecting an " Open " Echo.

Another question, If Gore's sytem is so taxed/maxed right now.....how is it ever gonna handle BR and the expansion at the Ski Bowl....that ALL uses the same pumps.

Will it be even worse next year?

Not a hater, but Gore & Co merits cross examination. Only if we keep pressure on them will we get what we deserve.

[Jeff]

Those are valid questions Snowballs. I'd be interested in seeing how Gore's snowmaking capacity compares to other mountains. Maybe a good comparison would be how long it would take each resort to completely cover all of its skiable acres (at least those with snowmaking). If Gore or any mtn adds terrain without adding snowmaking capacity, hmm... Sags is a lot of acreage - wide AND long.

[x10003q]

Here is a little math:
Stratton claims they can cover about 3 football fields with a foot of snow in 1 hour. A football field is about 1.1 acres (a little more if you include the end zones). So 3.3 acres per hour or 79.2 acres in 24 hours.

According to the Harvey/Mike Pratt discussion Gore can cover about 15 acres in 24 hours.

No wonder why there are still outhouses on the mountain.

[Harvey44]

An answer to the question - why does Gore blow on two trails at a time:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/01/mike-pratt-on-gore-snowmaking.html

Then what's this answer.......Gore says tonight that they are blowing on 7 trails. :?: How would one reconcile that to Harv's " 2 trails only snowmaking " post?

Advertise snowmaking on 7 trails ( and only blow 2 :wink:). That's kinda what they've been doing.

If fact, they've been saying for days they were blowing on more trails than they actually were. They've been saying for three days they would be moving to Echo and it hasn't been visible....only one lonely gun for awhile today towards Echo's very beginning. That's snowmaking? Echo will open for experts only with.....no base and only scant natural ? That should be interesting. People were expecting an " Open " Echo.

Another question, If Gore's sytem is so taxed/maxed right now.....how is it ever gonna handle BR and the expansion at the Ski Bowl....that ALL uses the same pumps.

Uphill pumping capacity (UPC) is the limiting factor. The most efficient use of the UPC is to make snow on one trail at a time. When you stop making snow on any trail you have to drain the line, or it will freeze. If you blow on 1 trail and you cover your 15 acres in 24 hours an drain that line, you have only wasted the uphill pumping for that one line and you have 15 acres of snow.

If do it on two trails, you've got 15 acres of snow, but you've drained 2 lines.

Also there is more labor in blowing on two trails than one.

BUT - if you have a trail like Hawkeye, that is in pretty good shape except for one part, (headwall usually) it may make sense to "waste" some UPC to get it good again. You can blow on as many trails as you like, but more trails yields more waste.

There are times when you blow on multiple trails because total snow produced is not the only thing that matters. It's Christmas, or something important is impassible and it can't be groomed out without new snow.

There is no desire to mislead. Gore is smart enough to know that that isn't productive and it doesn't further their goals. On Friday night Gore was absolutely planning on opening Echo in the morning to experts only. A variety of things overnight prevented it and it didn't happen. Nobody was trying to trick anyone into buying a ticket.

There's no question that the current system will have a hard time covering all the new terrain. There are plans to upgrade the pumping system over the next five years. It's expensive for sure. And there is no guarantee. Funding for anything can dry up at anytime.

The infrastructure for more pumping has to be installed at the base and along the new trails. I think the thought process is to add the new terrain first. Terrain without pumping is usable sometimes - after big dumps. I don't know how redunant the system can be - if pumping capacity can easily be switched from one trail to another.

I don't know all the answers by any means. I'm just trying to shed some light. I also understand that trying to explain what I learned invites criticism. I think it's worth the effort, but I'm not sure.

I finally posted my conversation with Mike last night. As I said before, I really wanted this group to see it.

If interested, link is here:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2009/01/conversation-with-mike-pratt.html

[Spongeworthy]

Uphill pumping capacity (UPC) is the limiting factor. The most efficient use of the UPC is to make snow on one trail at a time. When you stop making snow on any trail you have to drain the line, or it will freeze. If you blow on 1 trail and you cover your 15 acres in 24 hours an drain that line, you have only wasted the uphill pumping for that one line and you have 15 acres of snow.

If do it on two trails, you've got 15 acres of snow, but you've drained 2 lines.

Also there is more labor in blowing on two trails than one.

BUT - if you have a trail like Hawkeye, that is in pretty good shape except for one part, (headwall usually) it may make sense to "waste" some UPC to get it good again. You can blow on as many trails as you like, but more trails yields more waste.

There are times when you blow on multiple trails because total snow produced is not the only thing that matters. It's Christmas, or something important is impassible and it can't be groomed out without new snow.

There is no desire to mislead. Gore is smart enough to know that that isn't productive and it doesn't further their goals. On Friday night Gore was absolutely planning on opening Echo in the morning to experts only. A variety of things overnight prevented it and it didn't happen. Nobody was trying to trick anyone into buying a ticket.

There's no question that the current system will have a hard time covering all the new terrain. There are plans to upgrade the pumping system over the next five years. It's expensive for sure. And there is no guarantee. Funding for anything can dry up at anytime.

The infrastructure for more pumping has to be installed at the base and along the new trails. I think the thought process is to add the new terrain first. Terrain without pumping is usable sometimes - after big dumps. I don't know how redunant the system can be - if pumping capacity can easily be switched from one trail to another.

I don't know all the answers by any means. I'm just trying to shed some light. I also understand that trying to explain what I learned invites criticism. I think it's worth the effort, but I'm not sure.

I finally posted my conversation with Mike last night. As I said before, I really wanted this group to see it.

If interested, link is here:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2009/01/conversation-with-mike-pratt.htmlHarvey, thanks for providing a great service not only to the Gore faithful, but to Gore management as well. I never wanted to believe that Gore management didn't care about Gore's customers, but until you stepped in to fill the information void, the temptation to think that was overpowering. Thanks to you, I see that Gore does care and has been trying its best to deal with an unusual combination of problems.

[GoofyRider]

An answer to the question - why does Gore blow on two trails at a time:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/01/mike-pratt-on-gore-snowmaking.html

Then what's this answer.......Gore says tonight that they are blowing on 7 trails. :?: How would one reconcile that to Harv's " 2 trails only snowmaking " post?

Advertise snowmaking on 7 trails ( and only blow 2 :wink:). That's kinda what they've been doing.

If fact, they've been saying for days they were blowing on more trails than they actually were. They've been saying for three days they would be moving to Echo and it hasn't been visible....only one lonely gun for awhile today towards Echo's very beginning. That's snowmaking? Echo will open for experts only with.....no base and only scant natural ? That should be interesting. People were expecting an " Open " Echo.

Another question, If Gore's sytem is so taxed/maxed right now.....how is it ever gonna handle BR and the expansion at the Ski Bowl....that ALL uses the same pumps.


"I finally posted my conversation with Mike last night. As I said before, I really wanted this group to see it."

If interested, link is here:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2009/01/conversation-with-mike-pratt.html

Thanks for the effort Harvey. Both your interviews were really well done and provided some nice insight, also I think you handled the tough questions in perfect form. Real nice job. Harvey for ADK Forum President!

[jimmer]

omg,what a load of crap,i relize u been trying too get answers,but youve fallen for every thing ole mike p has laid on you,hey mikes a nice enuff guy,and hard too get mad at,but he definatly has too come up with something to say,the guy could sell fur coats at a peta convention for christ sake,hes got more excuses,,,as for waste what are they wasting? water,i dont think the hudsons going to dry up any time soon,man power,dont have enuff,get some.ive seen them blow more than 1 trail at a time many times b4,theres something going on this year thats has not been the norm in years past,,snow making is part of the game here in the east.im more than willing too ride this out,and see what happens,and im not even going too bitch about it,after all the skiing has been getting better,but i will never believe the excuses and there reasons for there short commings this year.btw there was not 1 gun blowin today,nor were they fixen the mess that was on the rumor.

[jmokes]

Harv, I gotta agree with jimmer a little bit here...though i appreciate your efforts as much as anyone's but sometimes things simply don't add up. I've spent some time with mike, in person, on the phone, via e mail, etc. & it's apparent to me that he's under some ORDA/court order not to say a word about the budget cuts, employee cuts, etc. for fear of getting his head cut off. I've also emailed teddy blazer, who i think is the real culprit in all of this & that cat refuses to answer anything & pushes it all downhill (no pun intended) to mike. Can mike make better decisions or communicate better? sure, who couldn't but a lot of this is b.s. They've blown way more snow in the past & had more terrain open with the same lack of cooperation from the weather.

i've been climbing all over them for the paid parking crap i.e. "skiers against paid parking @ gore" fb, a few articles in the local papers, gore paid parking helmet stickers, etc. If they're gonna whack the avg joe skier for another ten spot to park like a rock star then i want okemo snow & grooming & all my lifts turning on a friday. I'm already paying the same $$$. If they're not able to upgrade the snowmaking along with all of the new terrain, maybe they should put a halt on all of this development that's costing millions. if they spend all that money & the condiditons suck, chances are the people they're trying to attract will never come back if they're skiing on boiler plate in early january. and gore is getting absoultely crushed on skireport.com.

slow & steady wins the race...this isn't a sprint. snowmaking should be improved in concert with new trails opening. otherwise, whats the point???

[jmokes]

Harv, I gotta agree with jimmer a little bit here...though i appreciate your efforts as much as anyone's but sometimes things simply don't add up. I've spent some time with mike, in person, on the phone, via e mail, etc. & it's apparent to me that he's under some ORDA/court order not to say a word about the budget cuts, employee cuts, etc. for fear of getting his head cut off. I've also emailed teddy blazer, who i think is the real culprit in all of this & that cat refuses to answer anything & pushes it all downhill (no pun intended) to mike. Can mike make better decisions or communicate better? sure, who couldn't but a lot of this is b.s. They've blown way more snow in the past & had more terrain open with the same lack of cooperation from the weather.

i've been climbing all over them for the paid parking crap i.e. "skiers against paid parking @ gore" fb, a few articles in the local papers, gore paid parking helmet stickers, etc. If they're gonna whack the avg joe skier for another ten spot to park like a rock star then i want okemo snow & grooming & all my lifts turning on a friday. I'm already paying the same $$$. If they're not able to upgrade the snowmaking along with all of the new terrain, maybe they should put a halt on all of this development that's costing millions. if they spend all that money & the condiditons suck, chances are the people they're trying to attract will never come back if they're skiing on boiler plate in early january. and gore is getting absoultely crushed on skireport.com.

slow & steady wins the race...this isn't a sprint. snowmaking should be improved in concert with new trails opening. otherwise, whats the point???

[Snowballs]

omg,what a load of crap,i relize u been trying too get answers,but youve fallen for every thing ole mike p has laid on you,hey mikes a nice enuff guy,and hard too get mad at,but he definatly has too come up with something to say,the guy could sell fur coats at a peta convention for christ sake,hes got more excuses,,,as for waste what are they wasting? water,i dont think the hudsons going to dry up any time soon,man power,dont have enuff,get some.ive seen them blow more than 1 trail at a time many times b4,theres something going on this year thats has not been the norm in years past,,snow making is part of the game here in the east.im more than willing too ride this out,and see what happens,and im not even going too bitch about it,after all the skiing has been getting better,but i will never believe the excuses and there reasons for there short commings this year.btw there was not 1 gun blowin today,nor were they fixen the mess that was on the rumor.

AT LAST! A voice of reason, a man with a pair. Hurray for Jimmer! Anybody besides Jimmer and I realize how incredibly stupid all that Pratt Splat was?

Plenty of - dozens and dozens - make that hundreds and hundreds of other ski resorts blow tons of trails all the time without all the BS excuses Pratt makes. Pratt charges as much $$$ as they do. Why is it they can snow cover their mtns good and Pratt can't? Pratt has ABSOLUTELY HUGE cost advantages WITH HIS TAX FREE business model and NO mortgage or NO improvements to pay for, he still can't do a basic minimum job.

"There's no desire to mislead. Gore is smart enough to know it isn't productive and it doesn't further their goals." says Harv.

Is that right? Yet they do it all the time! Last week they repeatedly lied about how many trails they were blowing. Repeatedly...as in deliberately. The Echo thing? Even i knew it wasn't skiable and posted such before hand. It wasn't skiable because they never blew it. Gore Knew it too. ADKskier excuses this Echo fiasco with the " top was like a glacier." It didn't get that way over night ADK! and The saddle is frequently glacier yet it stays open. Same with Hawkeye's headwall. They never blew Echo, that's why it didn't open.

Right now, West Mtn has 10 times better snow than Gore. How bad is that? West has none of the huge cost advantages Gore has. NONE.

Last year at an ORDA meeting, I heard Pratt myself say that they have " an increased ability to blow more of the mtn simultaineously." Was he lying then or is he lying now? The NOmaking system is already supposed to upgraded. Done. Finished. Now BR is online and Pratt can't even cover the older trails. The only snow job he's good at is dropping a load on Harvey Road. Then Harv shovels it our way. Thanks Harv.

I gotta ask Harv, are you becoming an Organ of Gore propaganda? It's Minister of Misinformation? Last week you posted a bunch of tripe from Emily on how disrespectful Gore customers led Gore to closed down their FB discusion tabs. You had an example here to the exact contrary, an example of Gore being disrepectful to customers like Jimmer (who related it himself and i witnessed it) and Gore booting Jimmer/them out of FB for no reason....DID YOU RELATE THAT STORY ON HARVEY ROAD?

Like Jimmer, I'm not gonna lay down and listen to endless lies, insults, BS and Excuses when there is ample empirical evidence to the contrary.

[ka2kci]

As I mentioned in the Nomaking thread, I have a very reliable source at Gore who has confirmed that there is an equipment problem with the Atlas pump that has cut their snowmaking capacity by one half. They are still waiting for a replacement part from Sweden. Why doesn't Mike tell us this? Because many of us are season's pass holders who will probably show up anyway. A marketing friend explained it to me...it would hurt their bottom line if they admitted that they aren't up to snuff this year since many of their holiday customers don't ski that many days. They don't care about the locals or the pass holders because they're betting that we'll show up anyway. Either way the continued denying that there is a problem makes us assume that the problem is incompetence rather than equipment. In this day of instant messaging, on mountain reports, facebook and twitter, it is hard for the mountain to keep on lying to us without being called out on it. The expansion to the Ski Bowl and even Burnt Ridge is meaningless if they can't even manage what they had before. Most of my non-passholder friends are going to Vt. since they are currently getting a lot more for thier dollars. I wish that the mountain would just come clean and point out to the powers-that-be that something has to change if they really want to run with the big dogs.

[Snowballs]

me too. it wasn't the janitor either. Pratt said on Harvey Road it costs $3000 a day to operate the High Peaks Chair.... what a joke !

MORE GORED!

They are on the absolute brink of losing their customers.....just as they are trying to become a "Destination Resort" and the State is going bankrupt. Anybody at Gore see what's wrong with this picture? Here's the deal. The State's not gonna give you any more money and you're gonna lose your customers.

Now they're running TV commercials announcing there's snowmaking on Sags! Won't the destination Customers be bummed when it doesn't open. Oh wait....they'll just go to Vermont. OK.....Won't we be bummed when Sags doesn't open.

[TomCat]

I think Harv is just trying to relay info he's been able to obtain. He's been able to get Gore management to talk by trying to be reasonable. I'd like to thank him for providing the info. We can all decide for ourselves if we believe it or not. I don't doubt that Pratt's hands are tied to some extent from the higher ups.

I do think a fair followup question is how Gore is planning to handle the new terrain. This year's major improvement on the hill is snowmaking on sagamore. MLK weekend is approaching and it doesn't sound like a single gun was fired there. What's the poing of installing snowmaking if it's not used?

I would suggest that Gore should drop their ticket prices to compensate customers. I have friends that spent $74 to ski christmas week. They don't feel like they got their money's worth.

As far as the weather is concerned, while we haven't reveived much snow, snow making conditions have been excellent for weeks. If it's true that guns were off yesterday, that's inexcusable. Temps are expected to warm up in another week.

tom

[adkskier]

Snowmaking on Twins Fawns today and it didn't start until mid-day.

[Harvey44]

Goofy and Sponge… I’m not the best at detecting sarcasm on the internets, but I’ll take it at a face value and say thanks.

* * *

I’ve got a ton of respect for Jimmer. He knows the mountain as good or better than anyone. Not just the terrain and secrets. The staff, the personalities and what makes the place run. He speaks his mind, forcefully but IMO without malice.

No question that Mike is a salesman. (I practically peed my pants on the PETA crack!) I think he has to be – he’s the focal point in between two important groups that he’s trying to keep happy. He’s selling to both sides. If I had Mike’s job, I’d do the same thing – try to put my best foot forward.

* * *

Jmokes – I think you’re doing a good job leading the vocal opposition. You’ve brought some innovative ideas and methods to the issue.

I know you’re a new skiadk member – but not sure if you were a lurker around here last year or not.

If you do a search on topic title “Gold Parking” you’ll find the current thread, and an older thread from last year that I started. I was one of the most vocal on the board on the topic. While a lot of things bothered me about it, the fact that it was proposed after the pass deadline, and during an economic meltdown ... it felt really wrong to me. I tried to lead the revolution last year – in all honesty I was over the top. More heat than light. MattChuck called me out, and I think he was right to do so.

This year I tried another approach. More listening, less talking. I think there is a place for both approaches.

I’ll admit it – it felt good to sit with Mike and have him listen to a passholder point of view on both parking and snowmaking. Maybe it was total BS and he was thinking about his golf game and just nodding. Who knows. But I do think showing the basic respect that every person deserves, helps you be heard.

* * *

Snowballs – Not sure what to say. I’ve learned a lot from you. You are incredibly perceptive and freakin hilarious at times.

With regard to paid parking - I think a lot of the friction comes from a feeling that … if you are going to charge like the big dogs you’ve got to blow snow like them too. From a cost standpoint, Gore’s day prices are as high as anyone’s. But I still think the early deadline full pass is one of the best deals out there. $699 – it only takes about 12 days to pay it off.

And I still stick to the idea that nobody was trying to trick anybody into coming to Gore by promising Echo. I know for a fact that Emily was sick over the mistake in the trail report. Anyone who saw Echo late in the day on Friday knew it wasn’t happening the next day. Communication is definitely an area that needs more work.

I've always assumed you're a passholder. If not please disregard the following. One thing I don’t understand is why you bought a Gore/ORDA pass this year. You clearly understand the issues and weaknesses at Gore. You’re in a good location for hitting Kmart or Central VT. The snowmaking and natural snowfall over there are far beyond what we’ve got at Gore.

* * *

For what it's worth - I didn’t start out intending to do an “interview.” I just wanted to go in a find out what the heck was going on. When I was in Emily’s office it occurred to me that you guys might want to hear what I was hearing. I was surprised by the amount of time they gave me. I thought it would make interesting reading. Clearly I’m not a journalist, and it shows. I’ve made a bunch of mistakes in that role.

I tried to ask Mike and Emily questions I thought were important. I just reread both parts again, and I don’t see myself agreeing or disagreeing with much of what was said. Maybe people assume that if you write it down, you are buying into all of it.

I ski Gore for a lot of reasons. One of the biggest is that I love North Creek and the southern Adks. That’s no secret. I’d really like to live there some day. I'm hoping I'll being skiing Gore until I’m 100 years old. No matter what the snowmaking or parking is like. I just can’t see owning property in Vt. I probably couldn’t afford it either.

Harvey Road started as a place to keep pictures and memories. It’s something I love doing, and I’m not going to stop. Maybe those offended by it, will be more comfortable if I stop posting links to it here. That way if you’re interested, you can bookmark it and check it out. And if you’re not interested, you can more easily avoid it. I haven't decided if I'll take Mike up on his offer for more updates. If I do, I'll keep them on HR and avoid posting links here.

I recently posted a disclaimer on HR said something like…. “just because I had fun, doesn’t mean conditions were good.” I like skiing and I like skiing Gore. It doesn’t mean I think Gore is the best mountain measured by a bunch of objective criteria.

Anyway … if I’ve added to the stress that was not my intent. Apologies to anyone I’ve offended.

[adksara]

Anyway … if I’ve added to the stress that was not my intent. Apologies to anyone I’ve offended.

Nope, no stress here. I appreciate the time that you took to sit down (and ski after!) both Emily & Mike. I'll be skiing around on Friday and hope to see some serious guns going, but it sounds like the issues with their equipment and terrain to be covered is a bit much at the moment... I'd like it if they'd just say that, but who knows... they may be getting pressure of the 'all is well' from higher up.

... so I'm going to put the ipod in the ears, skis on the ground and enjoy the trails of Gore that I do love.

[Snowballs]

[quote="Harvey44"]
[quote]Snowballs – And I still stick to the idea that nobody was trying to trick anybody into coming to Gore by promising Echo. I know for a fact that Emily was sick over the mistake in the trail report. [quote]

OH? is that all it was,huh? She was so sick she or others couldn't correct it Friday on their web page or Facebook? Poor dear.

It was harvly a mere trail reporting mistake. It was harvly a mistake when they repeatedly claimed NOmaking on 7 trails and only blowing 2. harvly.

[quote]I've always assumed you're a passholder. If not please disregard the following. One thing I don’t understand is why you bought a Gore/ORDA pass this year. You clearly understand the issues and weaknesses at Gore. You’re in a good location for hitting Kmart or Central VT. The snowmaking and natural snowfall over there are far beyond what we’ve got at Gore.[quote]

I go to Gore cuz it's half the distance than those other hills you mentioned. over 30-50 days a year, that really adds up. Also , you get two hills with a Gore pass. One thing i don't understand is why you don't apply that very same reasoning to everybody else here - INCLUDING YOURSELF! Hmmm? You said yourself you were "over the top" on PP.

Physician...take thy own medicine!

I reserve and will use my right to point out Gore's and it's " yes men's " glaring shortcomings.

It is morally wrong and insulting for Gore to continually shortchange it's Customers and then a tell bunch of Lies and BS to cover their tracks and blame their Customers. Too bad you don't see that.

If you're gonna insist on smoozing up Pratt's and helping them deceive people with double talk like.....

[quote]I just reread both parts again, and I don’t see myself agreeing or disagreeing with much of what was said.[quote]

What the hell is that!

There are some with enough cahoonas to challenge that mumbo jumbo in defence of ourselves and the many other Customers getting short changed and ill treatment by Gore and it's yes men. Gore won't change on it's own accord. That will require people standing up, not laying down.

For you Newbies here, Harv and i sometimes spar like this.

[Jeff]

I gotta agree with Sara - I appreciate the effort Harv has made to open up communication from Gore's mgt. I don't like some of Pratt's answers either, but there's no need to shoot the messenger. A lot of people have said if Gore's having problems with snowmaking they should just be honest and upfront about that and people will accept it. It's the communication vaccuum and spin that really get people po'd. Harv, you did a great job trying to fix that vaccuum and facilitate some communication. You asked the right questions, if Emily or Mike danced around the answers that's on them, not you.

[Jeff]

So, anyway, just what the hell IS up with snowmaking? It appears they have abandoned efforts on BR and on Rumor. Pump? Compressor? Budget? Or maybe just not enough capacity even when everything's working to get the job done? Like Jimmer said I'm willing to give some slack because the mtn skied much better this past weekend than the weekend before, but the renewed lameness gets me worried.

[Snowballs]

So, anyway, just what the hell IS up with snowmaking? It appears they have abandoned efforts on BR and on Rumor. Pump? Compressor? Budget? Or maybe just not enough capacity even when everything's working to get the job done? Like Jimmer said I'm willing to give some slack because the mtn skied much better this past weekend than the weekend before, but the renewed lameness gets me worried.

You're up harv. time to yada. 8)

[Powderqueen]

I gotta agree with Sara - I appreciate the effort Harv has made to open up communication from Gore's mgt. I don't like some of Pratt's answers either, but there's no need to shoot the messenger. A lot of people have said if Gore's having problems with snowmaking they should just be honest and upfront about that and people will accept it. It's the communication vaccuum and spin that really get people po'd. Harv, you did a great job trying to fix that vaccuum and facilitate some communication. You asked the right questions, if Emily or Mike danced around the answers that's on them, not you.

I agree with Jeff (and btw, it was nice to meet you last weekend). It would be much better if management was up front about the issues, snowmaking, open terrain rather than dance around the issues and post misleading information.

Harvey did a great job opening communication up, but didn't really stir the pot much or call Gore management on anything. He just listened and reported. That's ok, but Snowballs and others are really calling management out on their misgivings.

Skiers cannot manage a ski area, but are so quick to criticized how it is being managed. I think we'd all be less critical if the ski area was just up front about things and not try to mislead skiers.

As for Harvey's love for Gore... I totally understand.

Back in December, when only 60% of the mountain was open, we had a blast and skied hard for 2 days. the very next day I went to Killington. While there was more terrain and snowmaking there, I just didn't have as much fun skiing there as I did at Gore. I really think Gore mountain is special because of it's people, and the people have made the skiing more interesting overall by exploring areas off the beaten path, and by enjoying the goodness that Gore has provided in the way of good cover on many trails with snowmaking. Killington just had no soul and the people were not as down to earth and just seemed to be there to ski with not much love for the mountain or community. The difference is that it is a destination resort, not a home mountain like Gore is to so many people.

This past weekend Lies was a hoot, and we made many laps with a huge group of people (maybe that is why that trail was so crowded). But it was so much fun! I love waiting at the bottom of Lies on Headwaters watching good people enjoy that trail.

[Snowballs]

Yeah. i'm not a fan of Big K either. It's been a couple years since i been, but their lifts sucked. Slow, short and that Gondi was way noisey, rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr the whole way up. When i ski Big K all day, i'm only as tired as if i skied a couple of hours at Gore. Too many short runs and long lift lines. Those never ending Cross intersecting trails are stop and go like city traffic. Some of this may have changed.

Others may love it.

One time, on Outer limits I saw a friggin Porcupine crossing the trail. Not Big K's fault, but imagine skiing into him.

Me.....Vocal? :roll: It's been said that Gore doesn't like this board. I bet they love me! 8)

My ears were burning while Mike was holding Harv's hand and treating him to virgin fresh blown for first tracks of the year on Twister.

It's just that there's no reason we shouldn't have everything Face does. Better snowmaking, etc. I'm not much of a park person, but those who are deserve to have a rockin park, pipe etc. just like Face and all the other area resorts. I would like a Skier cross course to bust mah azz on.

Gorda short changes the mtn. It could and should be much better. That'ld be fun!

[Spongeworthy]

Goofy and Sponge… I’m not the best at detecting sarcasm on the internets, but I’ll take it at a face value and say thanks.Sarcasm . . . the wit of the uneducated :?:

Let me clear this up. I love Gore and have a good relationship with management and ski patrol, but I'm not a happy camper this season at all. I'm glad someone took the time to try and get some answers, which apart from your blog have been nonexistent. Thanks . . . again.

[Frostillicus]

Snow guns were going on Sagamore today. They also blew a bunch on Twister and in front of the Saddle Lodge. No snowmaking on the upper mountain.

[jmokes]

so the real question is what do we do about all of these perceived or real shortcomings??? my 1st inclanation would be to rent a bus, load it with those of us that are the most voacla about what's going on to our mountain & take a bus ride up to Lake Placid for the next ORDA meeting on march 16th @ 10 am. It's an open meeting/public forum & maybe we can get our point across, en masse.

Or maybe appoint 1 guy to get our message across at the ORDA meeting.

Or we could appoint a few guys to sit down with mike & address the issues & actually get answers to said issues (we still don't really have any on anything IMO). Mike could then bring them to the ORDA board.

Or we could find out what the budgeting process is for ORDA/Gore out of Albany & address it that way.

Or we could just start a riot.

Any way you slice it, all of this posting, FB groups, emails to mike & ted, interviews with gore mgt. & pissed off skiers, etc. seems to be getting us no where. Anyone else have any suggestions???

[jmokes]

voacla is not a word...vocal is. sometimes my brain gets behind my typing.

[Harvey44]

Snowmaking, the next generation....

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/04/nick-z-productions.html

[Snowballs]

That's pretty slick! Nice grooming, too. Fuj will be wanting one for his backyard park.

[fujative.]

My friend has been making those for a few years now. I'd do it, but it'd dry up our point well and run up our water bill WAY too high. Plus all my fun jibs are over at my friends house. I don't really haven anything set up here anymore.

[Harvey44]

I reconnected with Mike at the end of last week.

We talked about a lot of things ... the budget, parking, and some of the ideas from AdkSara's wish list thread.

To me though, the most interesting stuff related to snowmaking.

I learned some things that I found fascinating. Maybe you knew this, I didn't:

There are two separate pumphouses. One is at the river, and one is up by the reservoir. The mountain is blown by the upper system. The lower system, CURRENTLY, is used only to resupply the reservoir. And the current LIMIT on pump capacity and snowmaking as described here (http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/01/mike-pratt-on-gore-snowmaking.html), is actually the limit on the upper pumps.

The whole conversation definitely had an impact on my view of the terrain expansion.

Here's the link to the piece on Harvey Road:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/05/mike-pratt-summer-update.html

Comments on Harvey Road welcome and desired. I'll send a link back to Mike in a few days.

[Snowballs]

I posted this on Harv's blog where he and Pratt say snowmaking on the Ski Bowl Trails Will NOT effect/reduce the main mtn's snowmaking. OOOOOOKKKKK!

I'll add.....How crappy was last year's snowmaking and how often was BR covered enough to be open? Now those existing snowmaking resources, capacity/money/manpower, will be further subdivided to cover the Ski Bowl and Harvey Pratt says it won't effect the main mtn's coverage!!! HEHEHEHE.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Snowballs said...
I very greatly doubt the Ski Bowl won't put a load on the main mtn's snowmaking. Why else would they need the PUMPS!/intake/manifold upgrades Pratt mentions? Pratt has stated that both existing pumps are needed to operate the main mtn at capacity.

Diverting any existing pump to the SB will not permit the main mtn to receive the water it needs because as last season demonstrated, the main mtn does NOT has enough snowmaking capacity. To divert any of that to the SB will be to reduce the main mtn's coverage even more. If this wasn't true, there would be no need for the pumps/intake upgrades Pratt mentioned. Last year, Pratt assured us he was blowing snow as much as possible! Now he and you guys say diverting it to the SB won't matter. It just doesn't add up.

Plus, Pratt doesn't have enough crew or money to operate the main mtn snowmaking let alone the addition of the SB. Last year Pratt repeatedly said he was doing all he could to cover the main mtn. If you think taking any of that away and putting it on the SB won't effect the main mtn you are wrong. Pratt best snow job is here and it's a Public Relations snow job.

He gives vague responses..." We're not against moguls " and people believe it means there's a mogul trail coming....

Harv: " Little Gore does NOT add to the load on the upper mountain system?

Mike: That's exactly right."

Yea right! and the cow jumped over the moon, Clinton didn't have sex with Lewinski....Come On People!!!

Pratt does not have the snowmaking capacity, the extra money or the employees to cover the SB without it effecting the main mtn!

Does Gore even have permission to draw more water from the Hudson?

May 19, 2010 9:57 AM