so, how was it today?

[asland]

so, how was it today? I could not get out but am dying to know

asland

[CS_Films]

actually pretty good. better than I expected. It wasn't too crowded and there was a decent amount of snow.

[Harvey44]

CS .... any images to share?

:D

[snowman]

It was a good day, and got better as the day went on. Conditions were variable - snow in spots, hard pack, icy chunks on the edges. Guns were blasting. It was good to get out there!


http://s2.postimage.org/BIo_9.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsBIo_9)

http://s4.postimage.org/1D4p0A.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1D4p0A)

http://s1.postimage.org/dcaYS.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxdcaYS)

http://s1.postimage.org/dcdt0.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxdcdt0)

http://s1.postimage.org/dckXr.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=gxdckXr)

http://s3.postimage.org/1TN9Rr.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=Pq1TN9Rr)



[/img]
http://s4.postimage.org/1D6bg0.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1D6bg0)

http://s4.postimage.org/1D6gfi.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1D6gfi)

http://s4.postimage.org/1D6iKr.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=aV1D6iKr)

http://s2.postimage.org/BJUMA.jpg (http://www.postimage.org/image.php?v=TsBJUMA)

[CS_Films]

No video yet we tested out our new camera stabilizer today for a few runs! besides killing my wrist it works pretty awesome!

[snowman]

hey cs...
what is the schedule for next week's premier of the movie? the whiteface site just sez it will be on sunday. do you know what time?

[CS_Films]

Right now all i know is "around" 430. I will se if i can get a more solid time.

[Harvey44]

It was a good day, and got better as the day went on. Conditions were variable - snow in spots, hard pack, icy chunks on the edges. Guns were blasting. It was good to get out there!

100% agreement with snowman.

I'm a newbie - today was only my third time at Whiteface. I was definitely impressed. Decent conditions.

A nice relaxed vibe in the midstation lodge.

It's a good setup for downloading. You know ... if you must download.

FYI Snowmaking on unopened trails that I saw: Essex, Northway, Lower Valley(?). Good progress on Essex.

Not sure if you guys who really know Whiteface will find this interesting...but here's my TR from today:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2009/12/whiteface-126.html

[Lbtchnlgs]

Was great, kept up nice, got about 3 hours in.

Fun under the guns, got to thank the snowmakers a couple times

Good job!


First time skiing with the GF, good looking ski bunny, and can keep up... It's going to be a good winter

:twisted:

[highpeaksdrifter]

I agree with everybody who already posted, all things considered it was really good. Everybody seemed really jazzed to be there. Looking geat for top to bottom skiing soon. I'm looking forward to Essex next weekend.

It's just great to be back into it again.

[highpeaksdrifter]

Not sure if you guys who really know Whiteface will find this interesting...but here's my TR from today:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2009/12/whiteface-126.html

Nice report Harv. I always enjoy checking out your blog, it's very well down.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

view from the bottom......lol.....


http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/500/0_IMAG0034.jpg

[highpeaksdrifter]

view from the bottom......lol.....


http://forums.alpinezone.com/gallery/data/500/0_IMAG0034.jpg

That's Sat. Guns where blasting down there Sunday.

[zski]

if you have read any of my past posts you'll know i'm no fan of the terrian parks. why are they not prioritizing opening more terrian over having a silly rail jam on broadway this weekend. This is just plain not making any sense - we need more terrian open for the coming weekend but insteady they are blowing 5 feet of snow on broadway so they can build a park

wf could be open to the bottom right now if the focus was not on getting snow for a rail jam - this downloading thing is getting a little old already - it was fine for the first days or so - no other ski area in the VT is still downloading today

parks don't make money - they are a huge money suck. WF needs to keep their eye on the ball

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

if you have read any of my past posts you'll know i'm no fan of the terrian parks. why are they not prioritizing opening more terrian over having a silly rail jam on broadway this weekend. This is just plain not making any sense - we need more terrian open for the coming weekend but insteady they are blowing 5 feet of snow on broadway so they can build a park

wf could be open to the bottom right now if the focus was not on getting snow for a rail jam - this downloading thing is getting a little old already - it was fine for the first days or so - no other ski area in the VT is still downloading today

parks don't make money - they are a huge money suck. WF needs to keep their eye on the ball


i agree 10000000% with you, but i'm also not under 20 years old. me thinks the young punks think rail jams are more important than skidding around on an extra trail or two.

[takeahike46er]

wf could be open to the bottom right now if the focus was not on getting snow for a rail jam - this downloading thing is getting a little old already - it was fine for the first days or so - no other ski area in the VT is still downloading today

Sugarbush is still downloading.

WF has been making snow on Lower Valley and Fox, so they are committed to providing top-to-bottom as soon as possible. Shouldn't be too long.

[CS_Films]

They most likely wont have any jumps open this weekend in the terrain park so they wont have a super deep base. Things like rail jams and terrain parks are very important at any mountain. They bring a young crowd to the mountain which insures there future customers. I agree they need to focus hard on getting top to bottom set up asap. Whiteface is doing a good job of balancing its ski racing history with a nice park. Being a destination resort you need to have a little bit of everything. Doing events like Nor Ams and World Cups cost the mountain WAY more than having a park but this is something they feel benefits them and im sure it does even tho I personally would rather them sink the money into new rails and snow cats. They need to look at the customer base as a whole not just a few of us.

[tjf67]

if you have read any of my past posts you'll know i'm no fan of the terrian parks. why are they not prioritizing opening more terrian over having a silly rail jam on broadway this weekend. This is just plain not making any sense - we need more terrian open for the coming weekend but insteady they are blowing 5 feet of snow on broadway so they can build a park

wf could be open to the bottom right now if the focus was not on getting snow for a rail jam - this downloading thing is getting a little old already - it was fine for the first days or so - no other ski area in the VT is still downloading today

parks don't make money - they are a huge money suck. WF needs to keep their eye on the ball


HUH they have every hydrant blowing on the lower mountain, have been since its been below 32.

[Danzilla]

parks don't make money - they are a huge money suck. WF needs to keep their eye on the ball

I am not a big fan of the parks either - although it does keep the rifraff in one place on the mountain. I do like to hit some rollers on occasion - nothing big. 3-5 feet is big enough for me.

The parks may not make money but they bring in all the kids. Kids bring parents who spend money (Ray Kroc and Walt Disney knew this all too well).

I went to Mt. Snow last winter and they have an entire portion of the mountain dedicated to park terrain - super pipe, jumps, terrain features, etc. It was packed with said rifraff. I am happy if they all stay in VT, but they do bring in money.

With all the snowmaking equipment added at Gore and Whiteface over the past 4-5 years I still don't understand why they can't light off a much bigger portion of the areas. I know the weather can be crazy this time of year, but all the long term forcasts are calling for pretty steady cold over the next 2 weeks.

I am headed to WF for new years - hoping lots is open by then!

[highpeaksdrifter]

Web cam shows tracks on Lower Valley. :D

[highpeaksdrifter]

Web cam shows tracks on Lower Valley. :D Guess it's open.

[Harvey44]

Nice report Harv.

Thanks HPD.

Hey I have a question that probably isn't worth a separate thread:

What the vertical rise of the Little Face Chair?

I couldn't figure it out from the map.

[takeahike46er]

It's 1555'. All of the lift verticals are listed on the .pdf trail map.

[nyspnypd]

Web cam shows tracks on Lower Valley. :D Guess it's open.

Yeah its open I saw people skiing down it but on the conditions list it says closed. :?

[evantrentful]

I think theres alot of miss on whats happening with terrain parks. They are catering to a new generation. While they may not have the same money power yet, the reality is they will get older, they will have jobs they will start families and they will have that buying power down the line. They have to start looking to the future if they want to sustain a business long term. It was like the 80's when snowboarding was shunned, and in the latter part of the 90's its growth exploded, creating a new drive in younger population groups that much of the industry can be thankful for. Racing brought alot of attention to skiing, as do these terrain parks. Go to Whiteface midweek and more than half visitors are young adults, college kids, etc blasting around, who want terrain parks.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

too bad as much attention wasn't spent on mogul fields mid-season....groomers and parks are nice, but some solid bump runs wouldn't hurt.

[zski]

these posts that talk about the terrain park folks as the future of the sport are missing a key point. These kids when they grow up and become adults will not be able to keep abusing their bodies in the park. the snow sports industry needs to create true life long participants. Unless these kids learn to love skiing for the turning then they will drop out when their bodies can't any longer cash the checks the park deals out. the local orthopedists and dentists love the park for all the extra business it doles out. One of them i talked to even joked that they should advertise in the park so when the park rats invariably smash their teeth in or break their shins on a rail they now where to go.

parks are not a long term solution - they are a temporary fad like free style skiing was in the 1970's. my guess is that if you are reading this 99% of you are a life long skier / boarder. How many park fans will still be in the sport after their 20's? Not many - just one more data point in the theory that parks are not economically viable long term for the snow sports industry

[evantrentful]

Its not necessarily the future of the sport, but a gateway to lure a new generation onto the mountains. Terrain Parks have only existed in prominence for about a decade now and given its continued growth I dont think its near its peak yet. Especially with the freeskiing movement really gaining traction you could see it explode even further. I think you could see fit guys (and girls!) easily running into their mid 30's still running through the parks without to much of a problem. Sure they might not be doing what they could in their early 20's but needless to say that goes for just about everything we do. Im 23 now and have been skiing park for 6 years, and I feel just as good as I did back then. The ones that push themselves to hard and to far are ones they end up being taken down by ski patrol. I understand your Park Rats comment, but remember people grow up and they learn to appreciate things more. Ive skiied with guys that you would most definitely consider park rats (not nesscarily assholes but they lapped parks all day long), but as we have gottin older we just love cruising around the mountains. At the same time though I cant imagine not having the parks.

[ilovesnow]

these posts that talk about the terrain park folks as the future of the sport are missing a key point. These kids when they grow up and become adults will not be able to keep abusing their bodies in the park. the snow sports industry needs to create true life long participants. Unless these kids learn to love skiing for the turning then they will drop out when their bodies can't any longer cash the checks the park deals out. the local orthopedists and dentists love the park for all the extra business it doles out. One of them i talked to even joked that they should advertise in the park so when the park rats invariably smash their teeth in or break their shins on a rail they now where to go.

parks are not a long term solution - they are a temporary fad like free style skiing was in the 1970's. my guess is that if you are reading this 99% of you are a life long skier / boarder. How many park fans will still be in the sport after their 20's? Not many - just one more data point in the theory that parks are not economically viable long term for the snow sports industry

Are u for real...temporary fad? Come on! I am as big a die hard skiier as any (85+ days a year), but lets put it this way, if it wasn't for terrain parks, half pipes and snowboarders there would be half as many ski areas still in business. Resorts need terrain parks.
Skier visits were dropping like a rock threw the 80's and 90's, once snowboarding was allowed at resorts numbers started to increase. Clothing trends changed and twin tip skis were born and the ski industry started to grow again.
We should be accepting of all forms of skiing and snowboarding for the sake of our sport.

Buy the way i know a couple of guys in there 30's that not only ski in the park every day they are x racers who kill it in skiercross.

[zski]

Here is a little simple financial anaysis of the terrian park. I've heard that the park budget was north of $500,000 - to cover the extra snow, extra grooming time building the features, staff, liability for injuries, higher insurance etc. Let's say that will the large addition of broadway the park budget is $600k. At $74 a day for lift tickets that means you have to sell over 8100 more lift tickets just to break even on cash flow.

the proper way to do this would be to really look at the extra profit that the park brings in. Since we don't know WF's margin lets just say its 25%. In that case WF would have to sell over 24,000 more lift tickets to justify the terriain park. I don't the park supports any where near that. That means that the park has to sell about 200 lift tickets more every single day WF is open - there is no way in heck that is the case. During the week you'd be hard pressed to sell 10 -20 more tickets becasue of the park meaning you have to sell in the thousands more on the weekends. The taxpayers of the State of NY are subsidizing the park folk hoping onto metal rails and logs and knocking their teeth out and given the financial crisis the state is in its only a matter of time it will come to an end

[Harvey44]

... I've heard that the park budget was north of $500,000 ...

Does anyone know ... what is the operating budget for the whole mountain? Also does WF show a profit, break even, or lose money?

[-=koLLac=-]

... I've heard that the park budget was north of $500,000 ...

Does anyone know ... what is the operating budget for the whole mountain? Also does WF show a profit, break even, or lose money?

Well...since it's owned by the State...and the State financials are public - it shouldn't be too hard to figure out. However, given how small WF is in comparison to the behemoth that the State of NY is, I doubt that WF's operations are presented separately in the State's Comprehensive Annual Financial Report.

So the real trick is to figure out which entity it's consolidated into (somewhere in Business Type activities) and then contact the business manager for that particular fund with some sort of request for information. I imagine they would be reluctant to give you the details, though, I feel like it should be available so perhaps with a bit of convincing...

In fact, I'll check the CAFR right now, haha, we'll see.

Edit> it could be a non-major component unit in which case there is a chance that a separate set of financials is out there somewhere

[ilovesnow]

Here is a little simple financial anaysis of the terrian park. I've heard that the park budget was north of $500,000 - to cover the extra snow, extra grooming time building the features, staff, liability for injuries, higher insurance etc. Let's say that will the large addition of broadway the park budget is $600k. At $74 a day for lift tickets that means you have to sell over 8100 more lift tickets just to break even on cash flow.

the proper way to do this would be to really look at the extra profit that the park brings in. Since we don't know WF's margin lets just say its 25%. In that case WF would have to sell over 24,000 more lift tickets to justify the terriain park. I don't the park supports any where near that. That means that the park has to sell about 200 lift tickets more every single day WF is open - there is no way in heck that is the case. During the week you'd be hard pressed to sell 10 -20 more tickets becasue of the park meaning you have to sell in the thousands more on the weekends. The taxpayers of the State of NY are subsidizing the park folk hoping onto metal rails and logs and knocking their teeth out and given the financial crisis the state is in its only a matter of time it will come to an end

Are these hard facts or "lets just say" facts. I am a member of NSAA and there stats seem to point in a different direction. It is obvious that WF has put more of its energy towards racing in the past, but it is apparent that they are starting to see the light. If they want to compete with the Vermont resort the need to offer the same or more options on the mountain. Lets face it, the younger generation dosen't want to bang gates anymore, they want to ride rails and hit jumps. You want evedence look at the X games or the Dew tour. They get more press, more attendence, and more TV time than a world cup.

[-=koLLac=-]

... I've heard that the park budget was north of $500,000 ...

Does anyone know ... what is the operating budget for the whole mountain? Also does WF show a profit, break even, or lose money?

BAM ... http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/pdf/fsfinal09.pdf ... that's about as detailed as you'll get. To get Whiteface on its own you'd have to talk to the people at the mountain itself or the controller at ORDA.

The books don't look that horrible. Apparently they made money 2 seasons ago...

[snowman]

... I've heard that the park budget was north of $500,000 ...

Does anyone know ... what is the operating budget for the whole mountain? Also does WF show a profit, break even, or lose money?

BAM ... http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/pdf/fsfinal09.pdf ... that's about as detailed as you'll get. To get Whiteface on its own you'd have to talk to the people at the mountain itself or the controller at ORDA.

The books don't look that horrible. Apparently they made money 2 seasons ago...

this doc breaks it down by venue:
http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/annual_reports/annreport09.pdf
(from this page, which has more reports http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/annual_report.php).

I have been reading these for the past couple of years. They are interesting. There talk about marketing efforts, changes to the venues, skier visits, etc.
Your tax dollars at work! BAM BAM :-)

[-=koLLac=-]

this doc breaks it down by venue:
http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/annual_reports/annreport09.pdf
(from this page, which has more reports http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/annual_report.php).

I have been reading these for the past couple of years. They are interesting. There talk about marketing efforts, changes to the venues, skier visits, etc.
Your tax dollars at work! BAM BAM :-)

:) Go figure - of course I'd gravitate towards audited figures - professional deformation. Interesting info - too bad I have to worry about billable hours right now :shock:

[Snowballs]

I posted this before on the Gore page but it's relevant here. Keep in mind these State ski areas pay no Federal or State income tax, no sales tax, no school/real estate tax, no mortgage, no improvement loans to repay, etc. plus they get discounted purchases and utilities.

No way either of them should be short of money. NO WAY! Private ski areas make good money and they pay all those huge costs!

We need to keep this in the forefront. the State budget is gonna hit the crapper and some will call for the State to quit spending money on ski areas when it can't afford schools, healthcare, roads, cops, prisons, etc. We need to be able to show that these ski areas make money. California is not only closing State Parks, it's trying to sell some of them.

Where's all the money going? Face ought to have plenty of cash to put snowmaking on Hoyt's. Last year, the Attorney General exposed ghost employee(s) on ORDA's payroll. It got very little press coverage.

[zski]

between 2008 and 09 assets decreased and liabilities increased - not good

without the state's $8 million support Orda would have lost about $4.5 million in 2009


Are these hard facts or "lets just say" facts. I am a member of NSAA and there stats seem to point in a different direction. It is obvious that WF has put more of its energy towards racing in the past, but it is apparent that they are starting to see the light. If they want to compete with the Vermont resort the need to offer the same or more options on the mountain. Lets face it, the younger generation dosen't want to bang gates anymore, they want to ride rails and hit jumps. You want evedence look at the X games or the Dew tour. They get more press, more attendence, and more TV time than a world cup.

just look at the average weekend day at WF at you know this argument is not valid for WF. Every single weekend several hundred lift tickets are sold via NYSEF for the racer parcipaints from other areas and their families to race at WF. again i stress my point that if marketing stood at the lift ticket booth and surveyed every person buying a lift ticket I'm stone cold positive that well less than 50 on a weekend and only a handful on a weekday would say the terrian park is the primary decision factor of where they decide to ski

snoball's makes a great point on Hoyt's - if it came to a vote between snowmaking on Hoyt's or having a terrian park - Hoyt's would win by a landslide and it would likely drive much higher lift ticket sales over the park

[CS_Films]

The difference is ORDA and Whiteface. Whiteface's budget is mid 30 mil and they turn a profit each year. The real number for the state tho is how much money whiteface brings to Wilmington and Lake Placid. That number is an estimated 350 Million so for each dollar they spend whiteface returns 10. ORDA on the other hand looses money because of the bobsleds, ski jumps, and all of the other facilities around the area that dont draw a huge croud.

[Denison]

I am a member of NSAA a

I'm a AAA member :P

[Snowballs]

The difference is ORDA and Whiteface. Whiteface's budget is mid 30 mil and they turn a profit each year. The real number for the state tho is how much money whiteface brings to Wilmington and Lake Placid. That number is an estimated 350 Million so for each dollar they spend whiteface returns 10. ORDA on the other hand looses money because of the bobsleds, ski jumps, and all of the other facilities around the area that dont draw a huge croud.

Well said. i was just gonna ask that.

I've heard it put that way before, Gore and Whiteface profits help support the other Olympic venues. That not only makes sense but is also reasonable. There's value in having these venues. The Bobsled Run is one of only Two on the North American Continent.

[CS_Films]

Yea those venues are defiantly awesome and bring ALOT of money to the AREA but not to the venue specifically.

[snowman]

The difference is ORDA and Whiteface. Whiteface's budget is mid 30 mil and they turn a profit each year. The real number for the state tho is how much money whiteface brings to Wilmington and Lake Placid. That number is an estimated 350 Million so for each dollar they spend whiteface returns 10. ORDA on the other hand looses money because of the bobsleds, ski jumps, and all of the other facilities around the area that dont draw a huge croud.

Well said. i was just gonna ask that.

I've heard it put that way before, Gore and Whiteface profits help support the other Olympic venues. That not only makes sense but is also reasonable. There's value in having these venues. The Bobsled Run is one of only Two on the North American Continent.

not to be too picky, but 4 Bobsled tracks in North America - Lake Placid, Park City, Whistler, Calgary. Still, I really like going to the LP track. There is always something going on.

[tjf67]

The difference is ORDA and Whiteface. Whiteface's budget is mid 30 mil and they turn a profit each year. The real number for the state tho is how much money whiteface brings to Wilmington and Lake Placid. That number is an estimated 350 Million so for each dollar they spend whiteface returns 10. ORDA on the other hand looses money because of the bobsleds, ski jumps, and all of the other facilities around the area that dont draw a huge croud.
They dont draw huge crowds but they draw a lot of participants. Those people need to eat and sleep. Local business thirives because of that.

[CS_Films]

Yea they defiantly make money for the area. Just not for ORDA directly

[Snowballs]

The Govenor just signed a bill that the State Authorities have to open their books and submit to independent audits. These are bodies like the Thruway Authority, etc who control hundreds of millions of dollars each. The real DUH! is why haven't they been required to be open and audited before! fumbduckers.

***** I wonder if this new law...........applies to ORDA? ***** Could be interesting. Wonder if certain Placid luminaries are getting nervous? I don't care what you say, anytime there's insufficient checks and balances, a lack of transparency and accountability with other people's money, human nature takes over. just sayin. ORDA may doing a stand up job. But if their books have been off limits.......... Certainly those researching the WF finances here have found confused, incomplete or other wise insufficient data.

[-=koLLac=-]

The Govenor just signed a bill that the State Authorities have to open their books and submit to independent audits. These are bodies like the Thruway Authority, etc who control hundreds of millions of dollars each. The real DUH! is why haven't they been required to be open and audited before! fumbduckers.

***** I wonder if this new law...........applies to ORDA? ***** Could be interesting. Wonder if certain Placid luminaries are getting nervous? I don't care what you say, anytime there's insufficient checks and balances, a lack of transparency and accountability with other people's money, human nature takes over. just sayin. ORDA may doing a stand up job. But if their books have been off limits.......... Certainly those researching the WF finances here have found confused, incomplete or other wise insufficient data.

ORDA is a non-major component unit so the books have been opened to State accountants all along