Gore Power!

[Snowballs]

An article in this week's Chronicle discusses in new Gore plan to produce electricity through Hydro power. Pratt is asking the Feds for $20,000 for a feasibility study. Pratt claims Gore has 95% of the needed infrastucture and basically needs only turbines, one small - one large, to complete the set up.The 25 million gallon reservior is 1100 feet above the Hudson River and could generate 3-5 Kilowatt hours during the off season. That's about 400 homes worth.

Hope it works. Perhaps they'll splurge some wattage snowmaking.

[adkskier]

They could save a lot of money by turning down the temp in the lodge. 50 or 60 would be fine for skiers dressed for the cold. It's always too warm in the morning!

[Denison]

They could save a lot of money by turning down the temp in the lodge. 50 or 60 would be fine for skiers dressed for the cold. It's always too warm in the morning!

yeah it's always toasty!

[Hoser]

yeah....way too warm this morning in there. Cut the heat, save some $$$, and pump some snow on the NASTAR course and reward those who purchased a season pass for the course! This will be next issue of contention real quick

[jimmer]

:shock:

[JC7727]

what about the proposed wind power?

[fujative.]

what about the proposed wind power?
Just throw a turbine ontop of the pole right before snoopy rock

[Snowballs]

what about the proposed wind power?

Haven't heard much lately on Barton mines' plan for turbines. Last i read, they were going through the study/approval process. I know they had a test sight with an anemometer recording wind activity at the open pit mine, behind the darkside. I've been wondering how the wind turbines will handle rime ice. It sure coats the trees and that communications tower up top.

[adkskier]

The wind turbines on the Tug Hill handle the snow and ice without problems. Most likely because they are so much taller than the comm towers.

[Snowballs]

The wind turbines on the Tug Hill handle the snow and ice without problems. Most likely because they are so much taller than the comm towers.

That's interesting. But Rime ice usually forms at the higher elevations from low flying clouds dragging their moisture over a cold structure, trees, towers, etc. At Gore it's USUALLY just at the summit. Is the Tug hill that high? Not saying you're wrong, just that Tug may not be high enough for persistant Rime ice issues. Perhaps a fiberglass/plastic exterior on windmills slips off ice or doesn't have enough thermal mass to form ice or something like that. Hopefully, it's a non issue.

i was initailly against windmills in the Dacks. I've changed my mind cuz we HAVE to do something. Windmills, unlike dams or nuclear plants, could be dismantled easily at the end of their usefullness IF the future brings innovations that make wind power unneeded. JMO.

the energy issue places several " hands on our throat ". Pollution, expense, geopolitical issues that someone could literally shut down our economy if they wanted to, the eventual depletion of fossil fuels - each one of these has a potental fatal consequense - just on it's own. Very bad mojo to have so many hands on your throat. Yes, they will squeeze tighter and tighter.

[nyspnypd]

I say Wind turbines would be much more feasible then a hydro plant. If you put a turbine or two on the top of the Mt. there ya go they handle snow and ice just fine and I am sure it will produce more power than a Hydro plant. But then again since when has the state done something right?lol
Now they just need to have WF put some Turbines on top and there ya go WF could be off the grid.

[Snowballs]

here's an article i can link you to but it kinda confuses it though. The Chronicle article was unclear where the water in the reservior came from, dammed stream, pumped up, etc. This Post Star article says the water is pumped up from the Hudson to the reservoir. :shock: :shock: :shock: Can energy be gained from water that has to be pumped "up" in the first place? or is it more of a "energy recovery" and once the Tank is emptied the party is over. Yet that same tank will have to be refilled in the fall with water pumped up from the Hudson - so what does one gain? Curious. i'll be interested in what the feasibilty study says. $40,000 to find out it won't work? The only probable gain MAY be water pumped up at night(lower electric rates), then release/generate during the day when electric rates are higher and but that will be a minute gain.

Save the 40 k Pratt. Just send us a c-note and a couple cheesecakes to replenish our bribery fund.

http://www.poststar.com/news/local/article_04bb1a4c-f351-11de-9790-001cc4c03286.html

[x10003q]

Snowballs - you answered your own question. Pumped storage hydro is quite common. It uses cheap power at night to pump the water up and releases the water during periods of high demand during the day. It allows power companies to even out demand. It would be nice if they can figure this out as it is usually capital intensive and they already have the reservoir and pump up system in place. They would just have to figure out when they can remove/return the water year round without messing up the Hudson.

[Harvey44]

Pumped storage hydro is quite common. It uses cheap power at night to pump the water up and releases the water during periods of high demand during the day. It allows power companies to even out demand.

X - that is fascinating. If I'm understanding that correctly .... what they are doing is basically "making money" by buying energy low and selling high. I've got to believe it has to be a net energy loss, but the price differential is more than enough to make up for it. While it seems like a waste in one way, it goes to show that man will always find a way to exploit opportunities.

[Snowballs]

power companies that i read about say it consumes more electricity than it generates, that would be no help to Gore. The Power company's idea is it is cheaper than building more generation capacity (short term gain, long time loss) in that they pump up at night when demand is low then release during the day when demand is higher. whether it saved them the "cost of building more capacity" is likely errant. All projects i've seen like this use more juice than they produce. there are many like this on the allegheny/ohio watershed, Kinzua dam in Pennsylvania is one. They built a huge mtn top lake above the dam, paved it inside with asphalt, built the pipe connections and bought pumps/turbines. again all their brochures state it uses more juice than it produces. they would be further ahead just running a pipe downstream and turning more turbines with that thus losing NO ELECTRICITY. Water exits hydro plants with very little loss of pressure cuz it exerts pressure equally in all directions and is virtually incompressable. a short distance downstream would regain any pressure loss. if you've ever seen a hydro discharge chute IT'S RIPPIN!!! then they coulda skipped all the expense of the mtn top lake, pipe, pumps and the nightly loss of electricity. At Kinzua, that idea has been lossing money/electricity for ~ 50 years.

Once they got the river's horsepower in a harness, they ought to make them ponies run all the way to New Orleans, y'all.

Pumped storage won't work for Gore. It doesn't really work for the Electric Co's either. they did it so they wouldn't have to build more power plants, an expense Gore doesn't have, thus the Power Company's short term savings is now costing the Power Companies dollars, which they probably write off on their taxes.

[ka2kci]

Harvey...if you want to see a massive uphill pump system, stop by the Hydro Plant in Gilboa, NY on Route 30 in the Catskills. The reason that they pump water uphill only to recover it going down is that they are not able to store excess Alternating Current that is not immediately needed. At Gilboa, they pump the water uphill when the demand is low (at night and weekends) and they release the water in time for the morning commute in NYC when the subway systems and other electric rail systems demand tons of power. They actually lose energy in the process, but it is the only way that they have figured out (so far) to keep the trains running. There is a museum and a hands on display there that explains the whole process. It is worth a stop on a hot summer day if you are in the area. I hope to catch you at Gore one of these days. Matt

[Snowballs]

Many is the existing example that already shows this uses more Electricity than it produces. Mike Pratt, save the taxpayers the $40,000 for a study please. A quick sampling of our collective common knowledge yeilded many examples of it using more juice than it makes. For a mere $4 or one Saddle Lodge cookie, i will provide you many, many existing examples of how this loses electricity and thus Gore will lose money.

[Snowballs]

They actually lose energy in the process, but it is the only way that they have figured out (so far)

Right. Till i came along.

This is why i say impoundments should have pipe w/turbines running all the way to the sea. I'll expound more on that later.

Harv, you need to start having a " Meet the Harv! " times scheduled at the Saddle. i'll expound more on that later.

Right now....it's night night time if i wanna ski tomorrow.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

[x10003q]

Many is the existing example that already shows this uses more Electricity than it produces. Mike Pratt, save the taxpayers the $40,000 for a study please. A quick sampling of our collective common knowledge yeilded many examples of it using more juice than it makes. For a mere $4 or one Saddle Lodge cookie, i will provide you many, many existing examples of how this loses electricity and thus Gore will lose money.

This is just not true for this situation. Your example from the power co is what they want you to think. It is not the whole story. Today you can buy power in many states from independent power producers (mostly coal). These IPs might have contracts to sell most of what they produce during peak usage but their demand might decrease a lot at night. You cannot just turn off these plants at night because you have contracts to fulfill during the day. These independent producers will sell cheap at night. Gore might be able to sell the generated power back to the local producer to become a net zero power user. Also the local power co might have to pay Gore for any excess power they generate. They HATE when this happens.

The example of the PA pump up not making money might be true. They might have only used it a handful of times and the initial capital requirements have never been paid off by the generation. I am sure they have been paid off in other ways (tax treatments and deals with the government). As an independent producer, Gore (in theory)can just run the turbine until they zero out their own power bill, and maybe make money beyond their own usage.

[Snowballs]

ok. even though it's cheaper at night, it uses more electricity to pump up than is gained by release. "If" seems to figure in to it alot, so we'll see. "If" it were very profitable, many more privateers would likely already be doing it. Gore will have a very slim to none profit margin, imo. NY has some very high electricity rates, perhaps that will help Gore. I do hope it works well for Gore.

the sad part about it, and this varies state to state, is that a joe q public who produces electricity rarely/never gets the full rate for the electricity they produce and some states seem to have a ceiling on total dollars paid. I feel they should get the same rate/amount that the open market pays the normal producers. down the road adjustments could be made. This would help stimulate private solar, etc which is a good thing and would reduce pollution.

California is now in a battle to block off huge areas of world class solar generation real estate from commercial solar farms. these are pretty or scenic/wild,etc areas. one is the Mojave desert. I think this is a good move. beside the obvious reasons, we have plenty of developed areas to mount solar to. just look out the window when you fly and you will see thousands and thousands of roofs just waiting for solar panels, esp in southern California or the sun belt. There are millions and millions of roofs around that will someday have solar panels. Lowe's is starting to sell them now. the technology is getting good enough that people are even advertising them here in the NE, thermal and photovoltaic. Soon, the price will come down. and we'll be grabbing our ladders.

If i were Obama, that would have been a big goal of the stimulus package. American Companies in California,et al are producing efficient solar panels. mass amounts of customers would drive down costs and raise efficiencies, like it always has before. then we'ld be a long way towards kickin global butt in carbon reduction.

[x10003q]

ok. even though it's cheaper at night, it uses more electricity to pump up than is gained by release. "If" seems to figure in to it alot, so we'll see. "If" it were very profitable, many more privateers would likely already be doing it. Gore will have a very slim to none profit margin, imo. NY has some very high electricity rates, perhaps that will help Gore. I do hope it works well for Gore.

the sad part about it, and this varies state to state, is that a joe q public who produces electricity rarely/never gets the full rate for the electricity they produce and some states seem to have a ceiling on total dollars paid. I feel they should get the same rate/amount that the open market pays the normal producers. down the road adjustments could be made. This would help stimulate private solar, etc which is a good thing and would reduce pollution.

California is now in a battle to block off huge areas of world class solar generation real estate from commercial solar farms. these are pretty or scenic/wild,etc areas. one is the Mojave desert. I think this is a good move. beside the obvious reasons, we have plenty of developed areas to mount solar to. just look out the window when you fly and you will see thousands and thousands of roofs just waiting for solar panels, esp in southern California or the sun belt. There are millions and millions of roofs around that will someday have solar panels. Lowe's is starting to sell them now. the technology is getting good enough that people are even advertising them here in the NE, thermal and photovoltaic. Soon, the price will come down. and we'll be grabbing our ladders.

If i were Obama, that would have been a big goal of the stimulus package. American Companies in California,et al are producing efficient solar panels. mass amounts of customers would drive down costs and raise efficiencies, like it always has before. then we'ld be a long way towards kickin global butt in carbon reduction.

Man is that a post! :lol:

The reason privateers do not do pumpup hydro is because of the huge initial costs - from zoning and wetlands law, buying the land, water supply, power lines and equipment. Also I am sure the power companies do not want to have to buy this newly generated power and would fight it. The greens will fight it as most cheap power is coal. The big power companies did it as a way to have a reserve power during peak usage. They did not use it to generate power as they did that at their generation (coal/nuke, etc) plants. Since Gore all ready has the most of the infrastructure and water approvals/source, it could work. If they can generate power that has to be purchased they might be able to net zero their power usage or even make a profit ( if allowed) from the sale of the excess power.

I think solar has a lot of answers for power generation. It might even make financial sense on the house level if you live in the southern US. I looked at solar for my house in NJ, but the payout was beyond 12 years. That was a few years ago so it is probably a quicker payback now.

[Snowballs]

There's lots and lots of privateers in the same boat as Gore. K mart, Okemo, Flaton....hundreds of them. Maybe Gore will be an innovator? Mega plenty of pumped storage in industry too. just saying.

[GoofyRider]

This may or may not be worth mentioning since i don't know Gore's normal maintenance schedule over at that pump house near the reservoir... while hiking around over there a few weeks before the season opened I ran into a maintenance guy working in the pump house, he was taking a break. Wish I had asked him what he was working on...