For Sale - NY State Ski Areas ?

[Snowballs]

It was bound to come up. It will be repeated in the years to come. It may not be a bad thing or it may totally suck....Who knows.

ORDA & Co will paint a " We need more money " picture as long as the Cow keeps giving milk. That's a problem when the crap hits the fan. People will say " you're losing money. Let's get rid of the Ski areas so that cash can go towards schools, etc. " Problem is during economic hard times, there may be no buyers, esp. if there is a losing money stigma to the Mtns. We may get in a bad position.

This is one reason why I've been repeating that Gore has to be making money. You've heard me say several times that Gore pays No Fed income tax, No State income tax, No sales tax, No mortgage loans, No improvement loans, No real estate taxes or school taxes. Gore gets discounted utilities and fuel and other purchases - on and on. That's friggin huge money.

Given that Gore charges as much as the private, very PROFITABLE ski resorts who pay all those huge costs and still make money, then there is little doubt that Gore is making a good buck also. After all, the cost savings from Gore's State status would likely be millions per year. Quite a pretty penny.

We need to keep this in mind when others start asking to put the Mtns on the chopping block. Even if they don't get sold or closed, money for improvements and upkeep may be hard to get if there's a money losing stigma. Legally, can they even be sold given they are inside the blue line? They may just get closed. :shock:

We're not far behind California. Cali is trying to sell some of it's State Parks. It will get worse before it gets better. I know. It sucks.

When the crap hits the fan, the majority of people will see skiing as an expensive luxury for the few. They will say " Get rid of it! ".

Check out the 4th paragraph.

http://www.poststar.com/news/local/article_29f3b74a-f9b1-11de-b72d-001cc4c002e0.html

:shock:

[Snowballs]

ORDA needs to be audited by the state.

Applause. Applause.

You sound like me! :D

They recently passed a law permiting INDEPENDENT audits of the 650 State Authorities, like ORDA. The NY State Thruway Authority, in all their arrogance, says it will not submit. :shock: Gee, I wonder why! They control Billions.

Before anybody goes off and says the Authorities have accountants, internal audits,etc I would like to point something out. Every Company, every Corporation, every Government body that you've ever seen go down in a flame of corruption all had accountants and internal audits. All of them. I've done battle w/corrupt Government entities before. Their accountants all couch their reports with language that protects them and their clients, otherwise they'ld never get hired by these bodies and they are not about to turn away work. Certain accounting firms are actually sought after by these crooks for their blind eye approach. Accounting firms rarely/never get prosecuted or held accountable anyway.

[TomCat]

Asset sales are a nice way to generate a lot of cash in one year and leave someone else with an even bigger mess to clean up. Corzine in NJ wanted to sell the NJ toll roads to solve our budget problem. Luckilythere was a public outcry againse such nonsense.

While NYS may not be able to sell the mountain (I don't know the rules that cover the park), I would guess they could lease it to a private operator. This wouldn't generate the large one time infusion as an outright sale, but may save money over the term of the lease.

When comparing Gore to private mountains, I think the private guys make a ton of money selling and managing real estate on the mountain. A few acres of cheap land can be converted into a goldmine of slopeside condos. Then they get about a 50% cut of the rental fee when private owners rent them for a week.

I believe, but am not 100% sure, that Okemo was once a sleepy state run mountain. The new management improved things significantly and now can get away with charging top dollar.

tom

[Snowballs]

When comparing Gore to private mountains, I think the private guys make a ton of money selling and managing real estate on the mountain. A few acres of cheap land can be converted into a goldmine of slopeside condos. Then they get about a 50% cut of the rental fee when private owners rent them for a week.

Well, yes and no, respectfully TC. Many profitable ski resorts don't offer anything but skiing. Dangle any one of the megasavings Gore/Face enjoys in front of the privateers and they'ld all drool.

" How would you like to pay no income tax? "

" We'll pay off and refund all your mortage payments and all improvement loans and even throw in no sales tax or property taxes. "



Just saying........That's alot of money. That equals good profit.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

i might be talking out of my a**, but, don't the profits from WF and gore go to supporting ORDA, including all the other ORDA facilities? the idea being that having a thriving ORDA generates interest in the area and helps preserve our olympic heritage, which attracts tourist and event dollars, which supports local economies and the tax base?

so, instead of private ski areas directly paying taxes to support services (and pocketing the rest), the state-run areas get a break on taxes and instead funnel their profits to support regional infrastructure for the indirect benefit of those who live here?

[Snowballs]

i might be talking out of my a**, but, don't the profits from WF and gore go to supporting ORDA, including all the other ORDA facilities? the idea being that having a thriving ORDA generates interest in the area and helps preserve our olympic heritage, which attracts tourist and event dollars, which supports local economies and the tax base?

Gore customer's dollars supporting Lake Placid and it's Olympic venues is great for Placid. Yeah for them. But when Gore customers are getting a low return for their dollar, it doesn't fly so well. Gore customers have for years been cheerfully supporting Placid AND for years putting up with crappy snowmaking and half of the Mtn beiing closed most of the time. That last part is getting old with the Gore Community. Midweek lift closures amount to more time closed than open. Until just last year, Whiteface could ski the whole mtn with 2 lifts - Gore can't. Gore's snow making this year has been horendous. Their response to the Customer's concerns so far has been " We don't know what you're talking about. Everything is fine with our snowmaking ". That didn't fly so well with the Gore Community either.

To me, it all comes down to a basic right. People have the right to receive a decent product for their money. Gore's product has been falling short. Those who paid their money in advance and now have no recourse, the Season Passers, are getting short changed, a pig in a poke for their money. That's not fair.


Comeback......I just think it's important to keep in the forefront that Gore does generate cash and not let it be painted otherwise. They're already slacking enough. We're already getting short changed enough. While the State is having money problems it's imperative that the public at large doesn't see Gore as a money loser. It's imperative that they know it makes money.

" You guys at Gore are making a good buck and we want a better product. " is what the Gore Community saying. That's a reasonable request.

[Jeff]

Snowballs, I agree with you 100%. I have no issue with Gore's profit going to support other ORDA venues. Hell, I love xc skiing at Van Hoevenberg. That's a much better scenario than having the profits go into the state's general fund or (if Gore was in private ownership) to investors in Abu Dhabi. Rather the issue is that the mountain's management just doesn't seem to care whether it delivers a quality product to its customers or not. Hence the poor snowmaking, midweek lift and trail closures, and poorly executed paid parking. I feel that issue of the midweek closures is very significant, it's just been dwarfed by the much more visible parking controversy and snowmaking problems so far.

[x10003q]

Snowballs, I agree with you 100%. I have no issue with Gore's profit going to support other ORDA venues. Hell, I love xc skiing at Van Hoevenberg. That's a much better scenario than having the profits go into the state's general fund or (if Gore was in private ownership) to investors in Abu Dhabi. Rather the issue is that the mountain's management just doesn't seem to care whether it delivers a quality product to its customers or not. Hence the poor snowmaking, midweek lift and trail closures, and poorly executed paid parking. I feel that issue of the midweek closures is very significant, it's just been dwarfed by the much more visible parking controversy and snowmaking problems so far.

You have no issue with all the profit going to Lake Placid? I do.

This sending the Gore profit 40 miles north to Lake Placid is why Gore is so half assed all the time. ORDA is all about Lake Placid and uses Gore as a cash cow. They are now building a $22 million conference center in LAKE PLACID to go with the ice skating venues, the ski jumping, the bobsled runs, the x country skiing and Whiteface. I am pretty sure they are all money losers, even WF. What is being spent in North Creek? Last May the ORDA board delayed the install of the used, fixed grip Ski Bowl triple (that was already delivered) in an attempt to shake down Front Street (they own the land at the base of the Ski Bowl). Everything including the money had already been approved. It didn't work, but this is what ORDA thinks of North Creek.

What does Gore get? Half the mountain closed mid week. Possibly generating an extra $96,000 (less expenses) from the poorly planned paid parking when Gore's revenue was $8.6 million last year. No bathrooms on the mountain other than the Saddle Lodge. No food on the mountain other than the Saddle Lodge. The Gondola runs at 75% of its advertised speed(1100ft/min). Right now there are snowmaking issues. Harvey mentioned that Mike Pratt said it was from a power failure. What was happening before the power failure? Maybe Mike Pratt's income and /or job security are based on lowering costs at Gore so there is more money to support Lake Placid.

North Creek gets screwed by this outflow of money also. How many real estate projects never get beyond the land clearing or building 1/10th of what is allowed? The ORDA Board wants no competition from Gore. Gore is part of ORDA and by extension so is North Creek. If the money that flowed to LP for the last 25 years stayed in North Creek we would have a mountain that matched its lift ticket price instead of the rustic 1/2 open place we love to ski at now.

[Snowballs]

the Icing on the Cake is their attitude. Many, many people have voiced legit concerns and Gore's responses have had a certain " Let Them Eat Cake. " nasty flavor. Bad after taste. They are following that up with a side attempt to quash any discussions.

[Jeff]

You have no issue with all the profit going to Lake Placid? I do.



X, IMO the issue of what ORDA does with its profits misses the mark. Gore needs to be managed in a way that recongnizes customer satisfaction with their ski experience as Priority #1 :idea: . That means quality snowmaking and grooming, on par with other major Northeast ski resorts. I beleive that also means planning and executing policies like paid parking and mid-week trail and lift closures with a much greater recognition of customer sensitivity issues, as Snowballs points out above.

The debate regarding where and how ORDA makes decisions regarding capital investments is a valid but separate issue. Personally, I don't feel Gore has been short-changed in that regard. Whiteface got a new gondola, so did Gore. Both got significant new lifts and terrain expansions recently. Just because LP has ski jumps, an xc facility, bobsled runs and an ice arena doesn't mean that North Creek should have those as well.

[x10003q]

You have no issue with all the profit going to Lake Placid? I do.



X, IMO the issue of what ORDA does with its profits misses the mark. Gore needs to be managed in a way that recongnizes customer satisfaction with their ski experience as Priority #1 :idea: . That means quality snowmaking and grooming, on par with other major Northeast ski resorts. I beleive that also means planning and executing policies like paid parking and mid-week trail and lift closures with a much greater recognition of customer sensitivity issues, as Snowballs points out above.

The debate regarding where and how ORDA makes decisions regarding capital investments is a valid but separate issue. Personally, I don't feel Gore has been short-changed in that regard. Whiteface got a new gondola, so did Gore. Both got significant new lifts and terrain expansions recently. Just because LP has ski jumps, an xc facility, bobsled runs and an ice arena doesn't mean that North Creek should have those as well.

I do not think you can seperate ORDA from what goes on at Gore. Mike Pratt is totally hamstrung by the ORDA Board. I think he has a good handle on running Gore. The only reason lifts do not run midweek is money. Gore turns a profit but is run like it loses money (it does lose money - to ORDA). Mike Pratt might make the local decisions, but the budget control is in Lake Placid. How is it that despite unlimited water since the mid 1990s, and huge upgrades in snowmaking in the past 10 years they rarely blow snow on more than 2-3 trails at any one time? The most obvious answer is money. You need to watch some of the ORDA Board meetings. It is all about LP.

I do think Gore has been short changed. Gore had the only gondola in NYS. When they finally decide to replace the relic 10+years beyond its usefull life the LP boys start crying WF needs one too. WF did not need a Gondola (8500 ft long and 2432 vert + totally new line). All they had to do was replce the Little WF double (4500ft long and 1555 vert)with a HSQ. It would have been way cheaper. The (used from WF) Top Ridge triple at Gore was supposed to be a HSQ. Where did that money go? That lift is empty because it is too slow especially when 1/3 of the ride down Top Ridge is the top flat spot. The original gondola plan at Gore was supposed to go to the top of Gore. Where did that money go? After they shortened the Gore gondola to the top of Bear there was supposed to be a lodge built with indoor toilets and food. I am sure we will never see that lodge. Why did it take 6-7 years to put in a green trail (Ruby Run) off the gondola? At least we can get to the Saddle Lodge from the gondola now.

I do not think Gore needs the other facilities that are in LP. But those money losers suck dollars away from Gore. Are we to believe that Gore is unable to host a national or international ski/snowboarding event? WF has tons of events. Can they spare one? They already get the events from the other facilities. Why doesn't ORDA want its other ski facility to host an event? You know why. Lussi and Weibrecht have to keep their properties filled. Gore gets regional high school and younger events which means kids with minimal disposable income for the local eateries and bars and their parents strapped from the cost of junior racing.

The only thing at Gore on par with other major NE ski resorts is the price of the lift ticket and the paid parking. Today the Gore ski report is proud to report 66% open, and the Burnt Ridge Quad and the High Peaks Double are closed. Statton is at 100% terrain, Mt Snow is at 100%, Okemo is at 95%, Sugarbush is at 98% and WF is at 74%. All have various lifts closed except Okemo. But as we all know, closing lifts at most of these places does not close down whole sections of the mountain. I know VT gets more snow than NY, but these are huge differences.

Gore has awesome terrain and easy access for most travelers in the NYC region. It rarely gets crowded on weekends. My family and friends have lived with the outhouses and lack of food/warming on the mountain. The problem now is when the ticket price is similar to VT and so much of the mountain is usually closed midweek, we are starting to look at other mountains for our skiing vacations.

I just wish Gore would get its due from ORDA.

[Snowballs]

You guys are both right. Some of us don't mind if SOME of our dollars goes to the Olympic venues.

And it wouldn't hurt for Gore to get some of those big events, that's a great idea. It would be cool.

Gore doesn't even have a half pipe. Until recently, it barely had park. Face gets 20 times the park features plus superpipes and skiercross courses. These are all standard/required fare at larger NE ski resorts. Everywhere except for Gore. Gore patrons have to beg, plead and do without. We'ld love a skier cross course.....Those are fun! When can we have one?

Not trying to turn this into a Gore vs Face thing, it's just that Gore customers are getting very short changed Despite that fact that Gore has more customers than Face.

[Jeff]

Those are all good points X, I'd say we're both on the same page on most of those issues.