Search and Rescue

[adkskier]

For the second time within a week, ski patrollers and rangers worked until after dark to locate and rescue lost skiers. The second incident ended this morning around 1:30am when the rescuers brought the kids, who had skied out of bounds with their father, out to Chatiemac and loaded them on to groomers for a ride down the mountain. The search operation began sometime in the afternoon. Even experienced back country skiers (rescuers) got lost after dark. No news yet as to whether the father was ticketed and whether he will be billed for the rescue.
The first incident, late last week, wrapped up much earlier but still dark.
Yes...skiing back country is cool IF you are qualified. If you've done it and didn't have survival gear with you; you're not qualified! As a result of this reckless behavior we can expect to see stepped up enforcement of the ski area boundary law.

[Harvey44]

Thanks for the information adkskier.

This a problem inherent in slackcountry skiing.

Anyone can ride a lift. You don't need any specific skills.

When you are earning the vertical, it demands a level of commitment that seems to reduce these kinds of incidents.

You expect this kind of "adventuring" out of young people. We all did crazy things when we were young.

And a group of adults going OOB ... that's another thing.

But adults taking children in ...

Obviously we'll have to wait to hear the details.

But it's hard to imagine circumstances that make that smart.

[Snowballs]

People may get mad, but.....

I always felt that it is selfish to ski yourself into these positions. Why not just stick to the approved glades and in bound trees? When you go OOB and people have to come find you it puts others in danger just because of your little joy ride. It also costs money and is a large amount of effort for many people. If you say it's only some money then I would invite you to get your check book out.

People who do these things need to be more considerate of others.

[x10003q]

I know nothing about this incident, but sometimes people actually get turned around and make a wrong turn. Familiar landmarks can change with new snow amounts or sun to cloud light variations. This can happen within approved glades that are on the edge of a ski area.

[Snowballs]

I know nothing about this incident, but sometimes people actually get turned around and make a wrong turn. Familiar landmarks can change with new snow amounts or sun to cloud light variations. This can happen within approved glades that are on the edge of a ski area.

Agreed. And there are different scenarios....lost vs unable to go on. Either of these occuring in bounds are far better than going over the hill towards rt 8 which seems to be the most reoccuring problem.

When one leaves Chati and heads towards rt 8, that's a bad, selfish move. If one is on that ridge AND on the side towards Straightbrook, does it matter how the visibility is? One can always tell which direction is down. Down will lead you to the trails of Gore. Opposite side of the crest and it's a gamble, one people should not take. If people can't tell the side of the hill they're on, then their not bright enough to go in there and risk proving Darwin correct.

When on the Straightbrook side of that ridge, there's a much better chance of reaching a trail, just go " down ". It's also much easier/quicker for rescue personal to find and reach you and to bring equipment/personal to you.

OOB skiers need AT LEAST a whistle, flashlights, a compass and a compass reading before entering the woods. Most at resorts don't have this preparedness.

People need to be more considerate of others when joy ridng.

[adkskier]

Emerging details- there were actually two separate searches. Both called in around 3:30. the first group of young adults was quickly located and returned to the trail. The second consisted of a father (from Long Island) with 11 and 13 yr old kids.

[Harvey44]

I probably shouldn't have posted without knowing what happened.

It didn't occur to me that crossing the boundary could be unintentional. But anything is possible. (?)

If I have this wrong please let me know:

If you are "on the map," on the Chatiemac side, you can't go OOB without passing an orange boundary warning signs.

And doing some sidestepping uphill.

But you can cross the boundary, without warnings, or going uphill, if you have gone in higher up.

That's why I assumed the move towards Rte 8 was intentional.

[Snowballs]

That's why I assumed the move towards Rte 8 was intentional.

Bingo. There a certain amount of buzz abour going that way." Always Completely " untouched pow blah blah...so to speak. People do purposely go over the hill.

[adkskier]

Intentional or incompetent produces the same results. The boundary is very clearly marked.

Follow this link for a radio interview with the head ranger on this search and rescue:

http://www.northcountrypublicradio.org/news/story/15307/all-before-five-3-1-10

[Raymo40]

I think Gore has enough in bounds glades to have fun in. I have found a few unmarked ones, but there still in bounds. To me what they did going OOB was just boneheaded.

[fujative.]

That's why I assumed the move towards Rte 8 was intentional.

Bingo. There a certain amount of buzz abour going that way." Always Completely " untouched pow blah blah...so to speak. People do purposely go over the hill.

I don't think people go over the hill intentionally. There is a ridge there where if you know where you're going you're right on top of it, and there are a few different places to drop in, heading down towards Chatiemac glades/Tannery. I think the people who get lost are the ones who see people "sneaking in", and decide it's a good idea to follow to see where it leads. The selfish/greedy part comes in where everyone drops down towards the Tannery area, and people see fresh powder if they continue going straight. There's a reason people aren't going that way, because that takes you down the backside of the mountain. Once a person heads down the wrong way, people start following tracks, and that's how they get lost. It's similar to the outter boundaries of Timbuktu for those who are familiar with Jay. If you don't get out by the "last chance" markers, you're skiing down to the road. The only difference is there is a hell of a lot longer to go to route 8 than the access road for Jay.

I'm almost positive there is no way to get to route 8 if you go into Chatiemac glades through the marked entrance. it would take a whole lot of hiking uphill to get over the ridge. They must have seen someone going in the upper entrance (or just the tracks), got curious, and followed in.

If I was to ever ski an unmarked glade (which I would never do, that's bad), There is no way I'd go in alone. Especially when it's something on the edge of the mountain boundaries and if I wasn't with anyone familiar with where they were going.

[Snowballs]

What Fuj said makes a lot of sense, he's very level headed. But fwiw, over the years I have talked to people who've " gone over " intentionally. Yea, I know....why? A few others onced mentioned " how cool " it would be to go that route. I did advise against it as Patrol seems to be out there bringing them back too often, rescues that go very late into the night. Not fair to Patrol and not cool. Sadly, some day someone may get hurt/die and then the door may shut on other in bound areas people hold dear.

Come to think of it, the people who were talking about going over seemed surprised when I told them there was no way back to Gore and a very long way out to the road.

Everybody should listen to the radio link ADKskier posted on the rescue. It gives a good idea what kinda dangerous mess the skiers got themselves into and how much effort and risk the rescuers faced in saving them. Climbing around the steeps and deep snow through thick ground cover is never easy or without risk esp. at night.

Good thing it wasn't wicked cold. Those young kids are lucky not to be at least frostbiten and prolly had a very good scare. Bet Momma was glad to see them, huh?!!

I think sometimes people come up here and assume they got all the protections they would have at Disney.

Thanks ADKSkier for the info and the radio link. Interesting and very informative.

Thanks to Patrol and the Rangers for being there and saving the day. GREAT JOB GUYS!!!

[jimmer]

absolutley,,bravo too the patrol,,on of witch was a girl,tara,who stayed with them,bringing food and water,diggen a pit,and getting them warm,while the other went back for help,there lucky too have made it,,i dont think they even made it too the ridge for some reason they just went down the back side,,,guys an idiot,plain and simple,there is no excuse,when kids r involved,,,and your rite,its things like this that will ruin it for the others,,and btw the guy is an idiot,

[AdironRider]

People may get mad, but.....

I always felt that it is selfish to ski yourself into these positions. Why not just stick to the approved glades and in bound trees? When you go OOB and people have to come find you it puts others in danger just because of your little joy ride. It also costs money and is a large amount of effort for many people. If you say it's only some money then I would invite you to get your check book out.

People who do these things need to be more considerate of others.


So let me get this straight, its selfish to go out skiing OB because two people this winter went full retard and got lost? Thats like saying its selfish to drive because of how many people have to help you when you get in a car accident. Dont lump me and the other responsible backcountry users because some weekender from Jersey (no offense Harv, you know who Im really referring to :D ) got lost with his two kids. I think its pretty clear Snowballs you dont ski OB, and probably dont see why us responsible users enjoy it. Fine, different strokes for different folks, but Im not being selfish.

Sounds to me like this guy took his kids out into the glades to skiers right of Chatiamac and got lost. It happens. That glade traverses out a ways, then you have to cut back to get back onto a true piste. Guy probably didnt think he was really going into more than a glade, and how much you want to make a bet there was already a bunch of traffic heading out that way?

Stuff happens, and frankly, ski patrol and SAR know what theyre doing, its part of their JOB. I hate the whole argument that it puts them in danger. Really, you dont think they havent gone through hundreds of hours of training, etc and didnt know the risks? Theres a reason they go out on SAR missions and you dont. They took the job, and frankly probably enjoy the hell out of it, cause it sure isnt making them rich. I value their skill and ability highly, but its a sad fact that someone needs to be there that knows what to do, and these type of accidents are going to happen. Id much rather have a fully trained staff of the willing and able to help people out than nobody and they end up dead.

Snowballs, you would probably have a heart attack if you saw the skiing that goes down OB here in Jackson. And responsible backcountry users should always have a shovel, probe, and beacon, not a goddamn flashlight. Learn up on what it really takes to go OB before you start saying its their own fault for not having a flashlight skiing, when was the last time you skied with a flashlight?

Being scared of the OB is only going to make things worse if you end up out there. I highly recommend getting educated if it bothers you so much.

[Snowballs]

People may get mad, but.....

I always felt that it is selfish to ski yourself into these positions.

People who do these things need to be more considerate of others.

The gist is irresponsible people. Like those who choose to take young kids into areas that have no way back to the resort, underprepared, over their head, and not knowing the route they're taking. People who enter the woods late, etc.

So yeah, that is selfish behavoir. No doubt you're very well practiced in it.

[AdironRider]

Fact: Irresponsibility is always going to exist in some form, you just need to learn to deal with it in the best possible way.

I caught that that was your general point, hence why I said its a sad fact that we have to have search and rescue, but Im real happy we do. This guy and his kids would probably be dead otherwise.

You think he planned on getting lost? Im sure you've been lost someplace before, you plan on doing it? I bet you were pretty happy when someone helped you find your way.

But you have failed to see my point in that you're getting on a high horse and preaching all these things that you think are irresponsible (like saying they should have had a flashlight) when you dont know what you're talking about. Carrying a flashlight OB but having no shovel, beacon, or probe, is not the way to go about things. You can armchair quarterback all you want but know what you're talking about first.

You're making scared statements. Learn what it takes to ski properly in the backcountry and its just as safe, if not safer than skiing in bounds.

Stop being selfish yourself and open your eyes before you criticize others for doing things you don't know or understand.

Just to clarify, Im not saying this guy didnt screw up, but snowballs and others are hinting that he knowingly went and tried to get lost. Im sure this guy has learned his lesson.

Part of what makes America great is freedom. Cant stop the guy from skiing down public land, you just need to be prepared for the worst that could happen.

[Harvey44]

Not sure if you guys had seen this. More details:

http://www.poststar.com/news/local/article_2108aefa-263a-11df-9413-001cc4c03286.html

[Harvey44]

This story amazes me.

The amount of training, dedication and ENERGY required to pull something like this off, in the dark, is incredible.

Hats off to those responsible.

[Frostillicus]

But you have failed to see my point in that you're getting on a high horse and preaching all these things that you think are irresponsible (like saying they should have had a flashlight) when you dont know what you're talking about. Carrying a flashlight OB but having no shovel, beacon, or probe, is not the way to go about things. You can armchair quarterback all you want but know what you're talking about first.

I can see the need for a beacon and probe out West, or in more extreme backcountry in the East, but a beacon and probe in the Gore sidecountry? Just wondering, as someone who skis sidecountry but not backcountry, what good would the probe and beacon do if someone went off the ridge? From how far away can an avy beacon be detected? Would an emergency whistle be just as important in that situation? Not looking for an argument, just more curious than anything.


I don't think that this applies to anyone here, but if you don't know where those tracks heading into the woods lead, DON'T FOLLOW THEM! :evil:

[Snowballs]

Would an emergency whistle be just as important in that situation?


I don't think that this applies to anyone here, but if you don't know where those tracks heading into the woods lead, DON'T FOLLOW THEM! :evil:

Whistles are very important. A must have. I've read more than one incident where they saved the day.

Don't know if these individuals had this other MUST HAVE!, but people need to carry Fire. Life saving warmth, it's visible from Aircraft, illuminates the night darkness and you can always have the neighbors over for BBQ and Smores.

[Frostillicus]

Whistles are very important. A must have. I've read more than one incident where they saved the day.

Yup. I always carry one.

[AdironRider]

But you have failed to see my point in that you're getting on a high horse and preaching all these things that you think are irresponsible (like saying they should have had a flashlight) when you dont know what you're talking about. Carrying a flashlight OB but having no shovel, beacon, or probe, is not the way to go about things. You can armchair quarterback all you want but know what you're talking about first.

I can see the need for a beacon and probe out West, or in more extreme backcountry in the East, but a beacon and probe in the Gore sidecountry? Just wondering, as someone who skis sidecountry but not backcountry, what good would the probe and beacon do if someone went off the ridge? From how far away can an avy beacon be detected? Would an emergency whistle be just as important in that situation? Not looking for an argument, just more curious than anything.


I don't think that this applies to anyone here, but if you don't know where those tracks heading into the woods lead, DON'T FOLLOW THEM! :evil:

Completely legitimate question. A beacon, probe, and shovel are totally necessary in the backcountry, just as much so in the slackcountry as well. Sure the survival stuff will help when the shit hits the fan, but my point is that if these guys had the proper awareness and the right backcountry equipment in the first place, they could have lapped the Gore slackcountry all day and this never would have happened. Taking some other posters advice is like driving around everywhere with a towtruck following you waiting for the worst, as opposed to just fixing your car.

I will admit, primarily due to an overall lack of annual snowfall, the problem is nowhere near as frequent back East than it is here out West; however, 50 inches of heavy wet snow on weak faceted layers of rain crust, ice, and all the wonderful Eastern conditions you can find in a low snow year and you're going to have avalanches anywhere. Look at the guys up in the high peaks. It doesnt take much, and Gore slackcountry has plenty of terrain traps, trees, etc that will really mess you up if the slope rips out, and yes, glades will slide as well. Its not just wide open western bowls that provide those planet earth type avis that you need to be aware of. People have gotten completely buried here in Jackson when a 20 foot uphill slope of a ditch slid out. That ski patroller died, from avalanche that slid 20 feet down to a ditch. The right terrain can make little slides a big deal.

Ill see if I can find the TR from over on TGR earlier this season that can show just what can happen. Couple dudes were skiing thick, relatively low angle glades back east with only 10" fresh snow and caused avalanches. It does not take wide open spaces and 500+ inches a year to have to worry about avalanches, a strong wind can load the right aspect 3+ feet deep in a matter of hours.

Ill admit, I myself was naive to the seriousness of avalanche activity and the consequences of playing in the snow everyday. I highly encourage people to go out and learn about backcountry safety, the amount of information and knowledge you will obtain will make you a much better outdoorsman, and give you the skills needed to go out and explore with confidence.

Or you can continue to think you need a full overnight survival pack to even look at the slackcountry like others suggest, but in reality it takes just a little awareness, personal responsibility, and the proper avalanche equipment to have a wonderful full day OB.



Edit to answer technical questions: A beacon sends out radio signals in an eliptical curve outward from the beacon, think radio waves that are shaped like half ovals emitting out in all directions. When you switch the beacon to recieve it will recognize these radio signals in distances of meters, but the key element is that it measures the distance the actual radio wave has traveled. It is tough to grasp at first when your beacon says the one your looking for is 50 meters away when in reality it might only be 20 feet to your right, but the radio waves have traveled 50 meters to get to you. ( This is a concept that is tough to describe, but really easy to see with a picture, so Ill see if I can find one later tonight when Im not at work, but I hope that makes sense. ) That being said, a beacon will start to pick up signals from about 40-50 meters away give or take.

To clarify, Im not saying a whistle wouldnt have helped in this situation, but if they had the proper backcountry gear and awareness in the first place, they could have been OB all day and had a wonderful time.

[fujative.]

Edit to answer technical questions: A beacon sends out radio signals in an eliptical curve outward from the beacon, think radio waves that are shaped like half ovals emitting out in all directions. When you switch the beacon to recieve it will recognize these radio signals in distances of meters, but the key element is that it measures the distance the actual radio wave has traveled. It is tough to grasp at first when your beacon says the one your looking for is 50 meters away when in reality it might only be 20 feet to your right, but the radio waves have traveled 50 meters to get to you. ( This is a concept that is tough to describe, but really easy to see with a picture, so Ill see if I can find one later tonight when Im not at work, but I hope that makes sense. ) That being said, a beacon will start to pick up signals from about 40-50 meters away give or take.

To clarify, Im not saying a whistle wouldnt have helped in this situation, but if they had the proper backcountry gear and awareness in the first place, they could have been OB all day and had a wonderful time.

...40m to 50m away the search and rescue team could be having a conversation with the lost party, without yelling. Beacon's are if the person is buried under snow caused from an avalanche, not for cheating in hide and go seek. There was no need for a beacon nor a probe in the recovery process (not saying that it isn't smart to have them). There was no avalanche. Maybe a shovel would have been useful. The best backcountry gear they could have had was a compass, some knowledge of the land, and skins.

I don't think that having a probe and beacon would have made hiking out of there any more or less desirable.

[SIAWOL]

...40m to 50m away the search and rescue team could be having a conversation with the lost party, without yelling. Beacon's are if the person is buried under snow caused from an avalanche, not for cheating in hide and go seek. There was no need for a beacon nor a probe in the recovery process (not saying that it isn't smart to have them). There was no avalanche. Maybe a shovel would have been useful. The best backcountry gear they could have had was a compass, some knowledge of the land, and skins.

I don't think that having a probe and beacon would have made hiking out of there any more or less desirable.

Does the local SAR even use beacons in Gore mtn area recovery operations? Just curious...I cant imagine there's any more than an infintesimal amount of slackcountry skiers, day hikers, snowshoers, etc that use one, so I'm wondering if the SAR even uses or trains on recovery using one.

[Harvey44]

I asked one of the rescuers about the whistle. He felt that it would have helped a little, but not as much as you might think. It was his feeling that with the trees so thick and plastered in snow, sound was not traveling.

This is speculation on my part but ... at that elevation it's quite possible the cover was primarily balsam/everygreen. Farther down on the lower parts of the ridge (Tannery) we know it's mostly hardwood.

I got a few words out of Mike last night. Thought you might be interested:

http://harvey44.blogspot.com/1970/03/mike-pratt-comments-on-sundays-search.html

[skimore]

Completely legitimate question. A beacon, probe, and shovel are totally necessary in the backcountry, just as much so in the slackcountry as well. Sure the survival stuff will help when the s*** hits the fan, but my point is that if these guys had the proper awareness and the right backcountry equipment in the first place, they could have lapped the Gore slackcountry all day and this never would have happened.



I think you are putting too much emphasis on beacon, shovel and probe. Not sure how these items would have helped them lapped the Gore slackcountry much. You are leaving out the most important pieces of equipment that should be had first. Tele/AT skis, skins and a compass or GPS. Having a set of skis and skins and a compass would have let them skin back up.

The real issue is the proper awareness and common sense.

[skimore]

I asked one of the rescuers about the whistle. He felt that it would have helped a little, but not as much as you might think. It was his feeling that with the trees so thick and plastered in snow, sound was not traveling.



Agreed. Once you're in the those dense snow ghost trees. Your buddy can be 100 feet away and you could yell as loud as you want He ain't going to here you

[Snowballs]

I asked one of the rescuers about the whistle. He felt that it would have helped a little, but not as much as you might think.

Is that right? In the book " Exploring the 46 Adk High Peaks " the author tells of a x-country skier on the summit of some Adk peak. He was off the main trail when the snow beneath him collapsed/sunk and he fell into a 12-15 foot deep snowhole of less dense snow than he had been on. He was unable to climb out. There were only those very short, knee high trees at this elevation....nothing to climb up and out on. He was trapped and would have been screwed.

You cannot yell to summon help or alert others for very long at all. Very, very quickly your voice's volume will disappear and very quickly you lose your voice completely.... then you are unable to summon help from people who may be in your vicinity!

Yelling also rapidly dehydrates and completely exhausts you. Do you know why that's a very bad thing in this situation?

You can " call for help " for hours and hours - Days - with whistles without losing your voice, getting dehydrated and exhausted.

It was a good thing this X-country skier didn't share your opinion of whistles. He kept blowing on his whistle and eventually a group of skiers in proximity heard it, went looking for him and saved him. If he didn't have his whistle, he likely would have been hoarse when the skiers finally passed by and he'ld still be out there.

In the Gore incident, a whistle helps an active search party find you, get a fix on you, so they don't pass right by you in the darkness, snow cover pines, etc (That Happens!) .... so they spend less time stumbling around in the inky darkness, etc. These particular Gore skiers may have already spent much of their dwindling energy and hydration yelling for help - energy/hydration that would have been very useful hiking out or fighting off hypothermia.

A Whistle's sound carries better than voices - they are considerably louder. They WILL REACH FARTHER AND LAST LONGER than you voice. If conditions are poor for hearing then they're even worse for visiblity, esp at night. You have a much better chance of alerting people in your area if you have a whistle.

Whistles good! I always have my Wolf whistle handy......... in case of Hotties.

[Spongeworthy]

There's only one way to settle this . . . MORE COWBELL!

[Snowballs]

There's only one way to settle this . . . MORE COWBELL!

Good example! Those are used to alert Heidi and Co as to the wayward cow's position. Sound is a main method to summoning help, alerting others to your location and telling people you need help.

How many hundreds of sports games have we all watched where the Official's Whistle is clearly audible amidst all the crowd noise, players colliding, on and on. The Whistle's sound reaches out and we all hear it ! All the way from your couch! :wink:

Who hasn't been to sporting events live and heard a whistle above all the crowd noise, through all the hoopla?

Or the Police Officer directing traffic at a busy intersection full of loud vehiles, driver's listening to music, windows rolled up, etc. He uses his Whistle and the drivers hear it above the din.

Even if conditions lower the range of sound, a Whistle will substantailly extend that range and preserve one's ablity to audibily alert others - there may not be an active search party and victims may have to rely on people who happen to be in the area. Whistles save energy and body hydration. Those are all very important things that the simple act of carrying a whistle can help.

The x-country skier mentioned above would not need any convincing about the value of whistles. There would be nothing " to settle " in his mind on this issue.

If that don't speak volumes to people.........

[CRDalmata]

I was one of the skiers that was lost out there that evening. We entered off of the top of what I now know is Chatemac. We initially went into the woods at the very top of the run and saw a sign that said "Ski area boundary" so we turned back onto the main run and skied down a couple hundred yards until we saw a well warn trail heading into the woods. We followed that trail in and made a couple of turns and dropped a couple of small cliffs and found ourselves in a drainage where there were a couple of tracks. At no point did we see any tree line or signs marking a ski area boundary. There were some tracks that continued down the drainage and we started to follow them but really didn't feel like we were heading in the right direction, so we attempted to climb back up the side of the drainage. The snow was deep to the point that it was impossible to move if you were not in your skis, but the brush was so think and the drainage so steep that it was almost impossible to side step up the ridge. At this point we decided that we would follow the drainage down because there were already some tracks continuing down the drainage so we assumed that someone else had been down through there and we just might have a long walk to get out. We had no idea that we were in a second drainage that was running directly away from the mountain and heading into the heart of the woods. We continued to follow the tracks that were already laid in the drainage and eventually came upon another lost skier who had telephoned his father and ski patrol and told them that he was lost. At this point we decided to make a fire and just stay where we were as the sun was beginning to set and we had no idea if we would be found that night.

I can again say with 100% honesty that there was never any intention on our part to leave the ski area, and I am completely and utterly grateful for the efforts of the New York State Forrest Rangers in finding us that evening.

I understand that to the majority of the people that are going to read about this we are just some idiots who put themselves in harms way, but I can honestly say that I have spent a lot of time in the woods and a lot of time backcountry skiing. I fully appreciate the dangers that exist when I put myself into those situations, but on Sunday we thought we were skiing an in bounds gladed area, and by the time we realized we weren't we couldn't get back.

[St. Jerry]

Sounds like lawsuit material!

[fujative.]

Sounds like lawsuit material!

You must really hate skiing trees....

[Spongeworthy]

Sounds like lawsuit material!WTF? Are you kidding? :shock:

If there's a lawsuit, I wanna be in that courtroom to see Gore's lawyers rip them a new a-hole.

[Snowballs]

What the heck, CRD! Hope it doesn't take another emergency to get you to your 2nd ever post.

Where you been? You lost out there? :wink:

Very glad you are safe and sound!

[Spongeworthy]

I heard that the Jeff who did the rescue of the two kids with Tara was Jeff Palka who owns The Source.

Stop by his store and show some appreciation.

[Harvey44]

Jeff Palka and Tara were involved in the second half of the rescue - the part that took half the night.

It sounds from the description above. CRDalmata was in the first group, who were out of the woods much earlier.

Still ... it's always good to show the love especially at the Gear Source (http://harvey44.blogspot.com/1970/01/gear-source.html). We need a store like that in town.

And as Sponge said, ANYONE who was involved should, IMO. make an effort to follow up with Patrol and Steve Ovitt and the rangers. I KNOW they'd appreciate it.

FYO on Saturday I ran into a group of Patrol, meeting at the edge of Chatiemac. They told me that this (http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/03/scene-of-crime.html) was the point at which one of the groups exited the trail. Most of us probably know the spot a few yards above highline. For me, it's hard to imagine dropping in there.

[adkskier]

Now that one of those rescued has shown up in this discussion...all of those rescued should get together and contribute to throw a very generous appreciation party for the patrol and rangers. If this had occurred on US Forest land (as at western ski resorts), those rescued would have been ticketed and billed for the rescue. In NYS, they get away cheap and prosecution is uncommon.