State Wants to Zero Out the ORDA Budget! [Archive]

Spongeworthy

03-23-2010, 06:39 PM

This looks like a gut punch, but it's too early to say what will happen. There will be a lot of negotiating and horse trading before the budget is finally adopted, at which point the budget inevitably will exceed what anyone thinks is reasonable. Happens every year.

Money from the State is only 20% of ORDA's operating budget, but that's a cut that will really hurt. The biggest problem every year is that no one wants to give up anything. The big problem this year is that the people in control in the Legislature have probably never been further north than Saratoga or Lake George, so they don't care or just aren't aware how important these things are to the north country. Let's hope that somebody (a legislator, a protest group) steps up and makes enough noise so that some of the money is restored.

Closing the Olympic facilities would be devastating to Essex County. Those venues MAKE money for the State, just like the State parks. You can see the horse trading going on with the closure of State parks and prisons (which employ a lot of people inside the blue line). Although the budget "deadline" is approaching, the process is still in its early stages.

The budget is adopted when the appropriations bills are passed and signed by the Governor. It frequently went into July during the Pataki years (and technically later because the bills were not yet finalized). With Governor Do-Nothing Paterson, we might set a new record.

Harvey44

03-23-2010, 07:46 PM

When I saw adkskier's post and link this am, I sent Mike a note asking him what he thought.

His response made it seem like he knew the $0 thing was happening before the news broke.

And he said pretty much what Spongeworthy said above. The budget process can take a while, and often final budgets look very different from original proposals.

It looks like about $20M of the total $35M ORDA budget is used to operate Gore and Whiteface.

Sure seems like a $6M dinger would hurt skiing bigtime.

My two cents.... The Olympic facilities are a core part of NY State's identity. Like the Statue of Liberty.

I have no idea if the Statue is a positive or negative cash flow as a individual venue. But I'd bet that if it was loosing money, they'd never close it. It's too important for a lot of reasons -and not all of those reasons are easily measured in budgets.

I hope that lawmakers give the venues in Lake Placid get that kind of consideration.

Snowballs

03-23-2010, 09:02 PM

With no disrespect to State Employees, don't know how anyone blames this on Paterson. Yet it is a myth the Legislators hide behind. Paterson is the only one who has done anything. It is the Legislature that HAS to pass a budget not the Govenour. There's still a 2 Billion Dollar shortage in the budget that ends IN ONE WEEK! Legislature has passed absolutely no legislation to deal with it. None! They are the only ones who can fix it- the Executive branch is not empowered to enact laws, budgets, taxes.

Paterson has begged, pleaded with them to fix this 2 billion dollar shortage. They didn't. Because of this the State was unable to pay it's bills last December. Paterson wisely suspended some payments so the checks would not bounce and cause NY State's credit rating to plummet. This would have cost us tens millions in higher interest rates, hundreds of millions over time!

Paterson suggested several ways to try and solve it. He also submited a budget for this coming year. The Legislature ignored them and failed and continues to fail to do anything.....except say it the bad Govenour's fault. Behavior like that.....

Has earned the NY State Legislature the " Most Dysfunctional in the Nation " Award for two years in a row!!! :shock: They will most likely win it again this year considering this outrageous afront to democracy....

They were supposed to fix the Billions shortfall last summer. They wouldn't. So there was a legit, legal vote to change leadership. The vote was held and the ousted people quickly turned off the lights, cleared Chambers, locked Chambers and concealed the Official Record! Then they left town and would not return to fix the budget shortfall, or unlock Chambers so others could fix it or produce the Offical Record - even to the Courts! :shock: After weeks, Paterson compelled them to come back and for 6 weeks they still did nothing. This cost well over 100 million dollars to have them there (and they did nothing!) and millions more to lower governments.

This was a complete hijack of democracy New York Mob Thug style or Third World punk azz bitch style.

The Executive branch has absolutely no power to enact a budget or taxes. That is the solely Legislature's responsiblity and only they have the power to do it. We need to focus on that so these Legislative morons deal with the 10-15 Billion, maybe 18-20 Billion Dollar shortage for the next fiscal year starting......April 1!!! :shock:

Don't expect them to do it. These malfuncs are strong candidates to not only 3-peat but 4-peat as the Nation's Most Dysfunctional cuz this next fiscal year is going to be a disaster.

Snowballs

03-23-2010, 10:09 PM

Adkskier - or anyone - when is the final budget submitted or approved?

That's Funny!!! Hehehehe!!! LMAO???

Nothing personal harv.

Budgets in NY lately are never finalized. Usually they are voted on (sorta) very late after April, think Fall. Even then they are an extremely leaky bucket. Some large yearly expenses are not even counted in the " budget " so that they can be concealed. Most NY budgets passed are not even close to being funded and the dinks either pass legislation from the hip, plunder existing funds like the Highway funds, etc. and as is the case this year, just ignore deficits and try to pay for them with next year's money... robbing Peter to pay Paul.

There are some State programs/mandates where NY State simply just quit sending the local municipalities the payroll/expense money it traditionally paid to operate these programs. They never sent a memo, letter, any notification at all to the locals informing them of this a year or so ago when it started. Can you imagine? So far the local Governments are footing the extra cost. So far.

NY is 2 Billion short on this year's budget ending March 31. The unemployment fund is over 2 Billion in the red and growing fast. Many main bridges in populated areas are slated to be immediately replaced - badly need replaced - and there's not enough money. The State has suspended State Income Tax refund checks till April cause it can't pay them and it's bills. It still has 4-5 billion left to refund....they're not gonna have it. Starting April 1, the next year is between 8-12 billion additional dollars short - SO FAR. There's " off budget " annual expense items not even counted towards that budget's deficit but are still very real issues. Last year, Schools around the State were artifically propped up by the Stimulus money. That is running out. You can bet your left Hickory there's much more they don't tell us or have concealed. Toss in a nice helping of default to lower bond ratings and add even more increase to the deficit.

This year's " finalized budget " ends March 31. It never was a workable budget. They fully knew that last summer. They didn't even have borrowing included to cover the 2 Billion dollar deficit!! Nothing! They just said we're spending X amount of dollars and never had anything in place to provide all those dollars. Can you imagine? So that budget was never " finalized "! It will expire unfinalized.

Doesn't it make you feel good to know that we have the Most Dysfunctional State Legislature in the Nation to lead us through this calamity ? All warm and fuzzy like....

Snowballs

03-23-2010, 11:15 PM

It looks like about $20M of the total $35M ORDA budget is used to operate Gore and Whiteface.

Lastly, there's something EXTREMELY fishy smelling about ORDA and the Mtns' financing.

They charge as much as the high price resorts that get zero state dollars and still turn a profit. Plus Gore/Face pays no Mortgage, no taxes, no improvement loans, on and on. That's huge! Why would they be short of money?

TomCat

03-24-2010, 07:30 AM

A quick look at the Gore budge for 09-10 shows revenue of $9.1 M and operating expensed of $8.65 M. But those expenses do not include interest changes, princppal repayment or depreciation (non cash charge). These non operating expenses are lumpped together for all of ORDA so it's impossible how much is allocated to Gore. Assuming 25% are allocated to Gore then it would be over $1M in the red. Thke this with a lot of salt, I'm not an accountant (and the budget is not a financial statement).

It would be interesting to see if they meet they revenue target. Based on the crowds I saw, I would doubt it. Next year they are budgeting for revenue of 9.3M which would seem like wishful thinking unless the economy turns around.

tom

TomCat

03-24-2010, 07:49 AM

There is also $ 1.7M allocated to ORDA administration. That would look like some low hanging fruit for the budget ax.

tom

Snowballs

03-24-2010, 09:20 AM

But those expenses do not include interest changes, princppal repayment or depreciation (non cash charge).

What interest charges? What principal repayment? When did Gore have a loan, etc? For what? Anybody know? Does ORDA issue bonds? How is ORDA financing their $25M Convention Center?

These non operating expenses are lumpped together for all of ORDA so it's impossible how much is allocated to Gore.tom

THAT IS A VERY BAD SIGN!

Before anybody goes off saying " ORDA has accountants, internal audits, etc " let me say so did Enron, Bernie Madof and every other financially corrupt corporation, government body or political campaign.

TomCat

03-24-2010, 09:49 AM

This was my source:

http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/pdf/2009_2010budget.pdf

I really don't know how Gore/ORDA finances capital improvements, but since there is interest expense, I would assume there are some bonds. Typically a large capital expenditure like the BR quad would not be considered an operating expense and there is no separate line item for capital.

tom

Cliff

03-24-2010, 09:54 AM

Ya know, I have a hard time feeling sorry for "poor" NYS ski areas since the State may not help out. They are charging as much or nearly-so as VT areas, get great weekend crowds, but still can't make it. I jumped to VT this season and haven't looked back. The conditions have been as good as the grooming would allow with a low-snow year and all the terrain has been available mid-week.
JMHO.
C

Snowballs

03-24-2010, 10:19 AM

Thanks TC. Anybody know any answers to these questions?

What interest charges? What principal repayment? When did Gore have a loan, etc? For what? Anybody know? Does ORDA issue bonds? How is ORDA financing their $25M Convention Center?

As far as I know, improvements like BR are paid for with State money from the Legislature not with loans or bonds taken out by ORDA.

Like Cliff, I don't feel bad for ORDA, etc. They're starting to smell like a corrupt Agency. Keep in mind until these last few months there's been no legal requirements for NY State Agencies to have or even submit to outside independent audits. As far as I'm concerned, ORDA screwed me with Gore's poor performance this season. Next season is shaping up to be a real cluster fudge.

People like that do not incur my affection but they do incur my attention.

Snowballs

03-24-2010, 12:17 PM

Check out this new outrageous example of New York Mob Thug style politics.

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/albany_dems_offer_labor_seats_at_TGhOyP8XHJymnpBLA r7mKO

Pay the democrats $50,000 apiece and maybe you'll get your funding back. Who gets the money... the State's General fund or the Democrats ? The Democrats do.

These clowns aren't even worried about going public with their extortion demands! They actually put it in writing and delivered it out to people. They don't use the US Post Office so as to avoid mail fraud/conspiracy charges. During the Senator Bruno trail, it came out that their Lawyers advised them not to use the Post Office for their shakedowns so they could avoid the Criminal exposure.

There's also a statement that the State pays money to reduce State Employee's Union dues. WTF! Do other Unions get this subsidy?

NY State is headed for one rocky road.

We're screwed.

Spongeworthy

03-24-2010, 02:31 PM

Here's the ORDA pushback:

http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/

Snowballs

03-24-2010, 02:47 PM

Thanks Sponge.

Alright Kiddies. Here it comes!

Noticed the comments at the bottom of this article.

http://blog.timesunion.com/capitol/archives/24194/little-pushes-back-on-orda/

The nonskiing public perceive our sport as a rich man's sport. They will not want State money going to support our " rich " hobby. Especially when there's not enough money for schools, Cops, roads.

You haven't seen anything yet. When the crap hits the fan people won't want one dime going to our ski mtns.

I've armed ya.....now get ready for the fight.

x10003q

03-24-2010, 03:52 PM

Ya know, I have a hard time feeling sorry for "poor" NYS ski areas since the State may not help out. They are charging as much or nearly-so as VT areas, get great weekend crowds, but still can't make it.
C

The is a falsehood about Gore. I do not like the pricing structure either, but the profit from Gore goes to support all the other money losing venues in Lake Placid.

The idea that ORDA should not get the money at this point (and I do not like ORDA) is just stupid grandstanding. There are too many people upstate who struggle to make a living. Reducing funding will only increase the unemployed and all the issues associated with unemployment. Tourism is one of the few viable businesses inside the Ad Park. They can spend the $ on ORDA or spend the $ on unemployment benefits.

Snowballs

03-24-2010, 06:08 PM

the profit from Gore goes to support all the other money losing venues in Lake Placid.

That is an often repeated rumor. Do we have any supporting verification that shows it to be true ? Also often repeated is that Gore yearly loses money. If Gore loses money, how is it supporting Placid financially? Or is that a lie told to secure more State funding?

Guys on here who have read the ORDA financial releases say they are vague, obscure, little breakdown of items, venues lumped together. That kind of smoke and mirrors is usually used to create a shell game. Shell games are played to hide things. Don't know how much direct experience you guys have dealing with corrupt Government and it's agencies but this ORDA situation is starting to sound like a very familiar tune. Anybody ever independently audit ORDA?

Tourism is one of the few viable businesses inside the Ad Park. Here in the ADKs, Warren County levied a bed tax on hotels to pay for tourism promotion, events etc. Placid and Essex County could easily do like wise to support THEIR Goose that lays THEIR Golden Egg. Speaking of eggs, the restaurants could kick in some bacon too. Not yolking. They can do more to help themselves. Besides, until ORDA is more forthcoming with the books, who can say they really need any money?

Typically, organizations like ORDA who operate without true scrutiny are a safe bet to be corrupt. Especially when those in power at the organization can use their positions to increase their own private business interests.....Like having ORDA building a Convention Center! Where will those Conventioneers stay? Why in ORDA members private hotels of course!

I feel Gore has been pushed against the wall enough. I don't want any more of my ski dollars given to Placid and ORDA'S Convention Center when they are not doing a good job at Gore. Now ORDA may take the rest of the State money granted to Gore for the Ski Bowl to support ORDA. Gore should be separated from ORDA. Gore generates enough cash to be self sufficient.

Snowballs

03-24-2010, 08:20 PM

Glad I got my tax refund already. :D

NEW YORK STATE -- It's a sign the state budget will likely be late again as Governor Paterson issues temporary emergency spending bills to keep the state running through April 14th. Paterson is authorizing only certain essential payments during the two week period beginning April 1st.

The Governor's office has released the following statement, saying, "Governor Paterson remains committed to working cooperatively with the Assembly and Senate in order to achieve a timely, responsible final budget agreement. However, while those discussions continue, we must also ensure the continued orderly operation of state government during the beginning of the 2010-11 fiscal year."

adkskier

03-25-2010, 08:37 AM

and the Assembly wants to put the money back in the budget...it will be an interesting ride this year.

Snowballs

03-25-2010, 11:04 AM

Yea. I think that is pretty funny. Keeping spending high, without enough money to pay for it. Ya see, they don't have the tax dollars or borrowing lined up to pay for it. Neat trick, huh? I guess it's not a hood wink but a Bull-wink-all.

" Hey Rocky. Watch me pull rabbit out of my hat!". What a circus.

I see NY and California are trying to legalize Pot. I don't know. I guess it would provide tax dollars and maybe cut down on drug crimes. The Mexican Drug Cartels are getting bolder and bringing their style of ultra-violence right into America. Perhaps another benefit is there's many Baby Boomer Stoners who are getting to old to buy their weed from the kid down the street. If legalized they could just go to the local store to pick up their Buddha Bud and munchies. Maybe Pizza Shops will deliver a Pie and a Sack with a side order of Pot brownies for dessert. :shock:

I can't imagine the Pot dealers being in favor of Legalization. They'll have to get a job. But then they won't be going to prison for selling. That would save Taxpayers prosecution and incarceration costs.

I don't know. Strange times. High times.

We need Professor Peabody and his Magic Viewing Screen to see through the smoke.

Snowballs

03-25-2010, 07:24 PM

Here's some odd rationale. I copied and pasted it here so maybe more would read it. Here's a link to the article in case some want to sound off at the article's comment section. I suspect some will.

http://www.poststar.com/news/opinion/columns/wdoolittle/article_ce0f96d4-3852-11df-9cef-001cc4c002e0.html

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I recently heard the news about the state Senate budget zeroing out funding for the Olympic Regional Development Authority in Lake Placid, which hosted the Winter Olympics in 1932 and 1980.

The Senate budget was birthed by a couple of downstaters - Majority Leader Pedro Espada (D-Bronx) and Finance Chairman Carl Kruger (D-Brooklyn).

If the rest of us show the right stuff like these two guys, we can cut our way out of our budget trap.

Places like the Olympic Arena in Lake Placid, site of the 1980 Miracle on Ice, cost money to run. And sites like the Olympic skating oval, where Eric Heiden won five gold medals, are taking up valuable real estate.

It is true that athletes still come from all over the world to compete at the Olympic venues and tourists still come from all over to see them and to ski on Whiteface and get a thrill speeding down the Olympic bobsled run.

But we're in a crisis. We should not be thinking about our long-term prosperity or even our viability. We need to think about whether we can pay our bills tomorrow.

If saving money now means bankrupting our future, then we must. If we can save about $6 million this year by cutting ORDA's funding, it's worth losing hundreds of millions over the next few years.

To make it personal, let's say you offered to give me $5 right now to quit my job. I'd do it, even though I have no prospects and my family relies on my paycheck, because I'd have that $5 in my pocket, and right now my pocket is empty.

A recent SUNY Plattsburgh study found that ORDA's operations had an annual economic impact on the state of more than $300 million.

But the study also found that ORDA employs more than 800 people and, because of ORDA's operations, another 1,200 people in the North Country region have jobs.

If ORDA laid off all its employees, the state would save a nice chunk of payroll spending.

And, if ORDA was gone, private businesses could lay off the 1,200 people whose jobs depend on ORDA's operations, saving those businesses a whole lot of money.

People say it's hard to cut the budget, but that is because they lack creativity, and vision.

It would not occur to most people to eliminate funding for an agency that makes the state money. But most people do not have the short-term thinking ability with which the Senate Democrats are blessed.

We must seize the day, budget-wise. New York needs to put cash in its pockets.

I have an idea for Espada and Kruger. In 2005, New York magazine estimated the real estate value of 843 acres of public land lying dormant in Manhattan at more than $528 billion.

Can you say "budget crisis resolved"? With Senate Democrats leading the way, our next stop should be Central Park.

Will Doolittle is projects editor of The Post-Star. He may be reached at will@poststar.com.

Posted in Wdoolittle on Thursday, March 25, 2010 5:05 pm Updated: 5:11 pm. | Tags: Orda, Olympic Regional

Harvey44

03-25-2010, 09:04 PM

Not sure if you guys saw this.

Could be better news on the ORDA Budget (http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/03/orda-budget-cuts.html).

Snowballs

03-26-2010, 07:09 AM

Hey guys, that Post Star article posted above would be a good place to reach out to the Politicos on this subject. The Post Star and it's staff win awards and even a Pulitzer Prize for their work. They are good at rattling Politicos cages and they monitor it to see which way the wind is blowing.

Don't know if you saw Albany is trying to make helmets mandatory for skiers. People have varying views on helmets but I'll say I do wear one.

AdironRider

03-26-2010, 09:50 AM

While good for the mountains books, it certainly doesnt help the state that it doesnt pay taxes, a lease for the land, etc. In a budget crunch those are hard costs in the form of lost income. That just means the mountain has to be that much more profitable. The mountain pays those costs, just indirectly.

But at the same time, we all know these venues are not going to disappear.

I could care less how a place is funded as long as it puts out a solid product. Gore/whiteface could go private for all I care as long as the skiing is good. I can think of a few places that have gone private and improved. Sunapee in NH is a good example, for what it is.

adkskier

03-26-2010, 10:48 AM

Privatization has been brought up several times. I believe the last serious attempt was during the Cuomo years. In reality, we'd all probably fare better if the legislature would lease Gore and Whiteface (Belleayre too) to private operators. As skiers and riders, we'd likely get a better skiing experience. A private entity could invest major capital into improvements more quickly and efficiently than the state. Season pass and ticket rates are no bargain now so it's not as if our costs would be likely to increase. The regional economies would do as well or better if these mountains drew more skier visits.

Spongeworthy

03-26-2010, 11:06 AM

Privatization, whether by sale or even lease to a private entity, is absolutely prohibited by the State Constitution.

Snowballs

03-26-2010, 11:25 AM

Agreed. Except I would say completely privatize them. Get the State out of it. Put them on the taxrolls. Then the Gov't will make even more money. That will be a huge bonus for the local economy. It's a good chance it would be bigger boast to the local economy and the municipality's coffers than ORDA currently creates.

Some will say " But prices will go up and they won't have State dollars for any improvements. "

Yea well, there are dozens and dozens of area private ski resorts who do quite well without State aid. Across the Nation there are hundreds of ski resorts not receiving State aid and are doing very well without State aid.

NONE of these enjoy Gore's tax free status business model yet they still crank a profit.

I doubt it will ever happen though.

I wonder if we will see the return of the tax ski passes/tickets idea ?

EDIT - Spongeworthy may have found a stumbling block to privatization. I know they had to ammend the State Constitution to build Face and the Northway...not sure on Gore. There'ld still be the selling State land issue....is Gore on land that is prohibited from being sold ?

Danzilla

03-26-2010, 01:59 PM

Spongeworthy

03-26-2010, 02:35 PM

EDIT - Spongeworthy may have found a stumbling block to privatization. I know they had to ammend the State Constitution to build Face and the Northway...not sure on Gore. There'ld still be the selling State land issue....is Gore on land that is prohibited from being sold ?I posted this in Nov. '08:

It can't be sold OR leased. Gore is part of the Adirondack Park Forest Preserve. The State Constitution provides that such lands "shall be forever kept as wild forest lands. They shall not be leased, sold or exchanged, or be taken by any corporation, public or private." Orvlle Slutzky (Hunter Mountain) unsuccessfully sued the State when DEC transferred the authority to operate Gore to ORDA, claiming that it was a prohibited lease. The courts said that it wasn't a lease.

The court said it wasn't a lease because it considered ORDA to be acting as the state. If you care to read the court's opinion, the cite is Slutsky v. Cuomo, 114 AD2d 116, appeal dismissed 68 NY2d 663. There is NO wiggle room here. Gore simply cannot be operated by a private party without a constitutional amendment.

Snowballs

03-26-2010, 03:04 PM

That pretty much seals it SW.

Slutsky vs Cuomo. hehehehe. History does repeat itself ! Remember Slutsky vs Client #9 ? hehehe.

In today's Post Star there's a guy named J.P. Moron. He's going to jail for dealing drugs. I guess he's properly named.

Also in the Post Star is an Editorial stating Albany is so far keeping the old spending levels AND adding an additional 3 Billion dollars in spending. Remember, it doesn't matter to these guys if they have the tax money, borrowed money or not.

Things could get really ugly here in NY. Be prepared to defend your mtn.

AdironRider

03-27-2010, 12:45 PM

Whoa, learning lots here.

Given the precedent, it seems like it would be a tough sell to get a constitutional change to sell or lease the facilities. Think of the ramifications, how many other places would we lose as a result? The more I think about it, the more I like it the way it is. Besides, Gore/Whiteface might fetch 125 mill on a good day. I think Im aiming high. Is the juice worth the squeeze?

TomCat

03-27-2010, 05:35 PM

They have managed to contract out the food operation without violating the constitution. Couldn't they do something similar for operating the whole mountain? I don't know, but it would sound possible. I do think a private operator would invest more in snowmaking. Just look at how the private mountains operate. If they don't make money they go out of business, They don't have the option to go to the state foe more funding.

While adult prices are gore are generally comparable to VT, youth passes are quite a bit cheaper. This would likely change under private operation.

As far as weekend liftlines in VT are concerned, I skied Stratton over a holiday weekend and never waited more than 5-7 minutes for a high speed chair. They can really move people up the hill. HOwever the trails were definitely much more crowded than at gore.

tom

Spongeworthy

03-27-2010, 06:23 PM

They have managed to contract out the food operation without violating the constitution. Couldn't they do something similar for operating the whole mountain?The law is settled. Our highest Court has ruled that only the State (and ORDA counts as the State) can operate a ski area at Gore and Whiteface.

Be careful with your ideas or we could end up with work release inmates (which is allowed as a State operation) running the cafeteria and the Tannery :shock:

adkskier

03-28-2010, 04:32 PM

Spongeworthy

03-28-2010, 04:41 PM

The law is only settled in so far as stating the fact that a constitutional amendment would be required for the state to lease out Gore or Whiteface. A constitutional amendment cannot happen quickly, but it can happen. Placing a constitutional amendment on the ballot requires passing legislation in two consecutive sessions of the legislature. Once this occurs, the decision is up to the voters of New York. There is a mechanism.You're absolutely correct, but the odds of that occurring with our dysfunctional legislature and the environmentalists who would lobby against it, let alone whether the electorate ultimately would approve it at the ballot box, make this a huge longshot.

zski

03-28-2010, 08:30 PM

if it takes at least 2 yrs to approve a lease we could all be driving to VT for the next two seasons

many of us live in the the ADK so that would be aweful - are kids would not be able to be in NYSEF etc

Could Nysef run WF and Gore since they are non profit organizations?

Snowballs

03-28-2010, 09:21 PM

One thing we can all agree on is next ski season may turn a corner. Most likely it will be an as bad or even worse ski product and for the first time, it's now easy to see the Exodus is real, it has begun . That will hurt the mtn. If they lose 10-15-20% of their business..

I bet they lost 5-8% this season.

adkskier

03-29-2010, 03:36 PM

I think that the average skier skied fewer days this season due to the lack of snow in their backyards. While this forum is frequented by critical, yet dedicated and loyal, skiers who get into good debates and analysis the average Gore skier has been pretty happy this year. I talk to a lot of skiers and a lot of visitors to the region. Some of us were displeased with the overall skiing product this season, but the vacationers and rec skiers who I met voiced overall satisfaction and told me what a great time they had. So...the "mass exodus" probably isn't happening. Now the one topic that came up time and time again during the early season was paid parking. However, I heard nothing about it during the holiday weeks. Gore might take a small hit (and I mean small) on season pass sales, but I wouldn't be counting them out of the game yet.

Harvey44

03-29-2010, 05:20 PM

I think a private operator would be a double edged sword. Do you really think that a private operator if they were just leasing would have dumped the kind of money that ORDA / NYS has into Gore and Whiteface over the past 5-10 years?

I know the lifts are not all high speed quads, but there has been some serious investment and development. Snowmaking aside, I don't know any other mountain in the north east that has expanded terrain like Gore (or WF).

I commend Gore and WF management for getting the BR and lookout projects done. I think it was a great move to cut the ski bowl lift line and put the lower lift house in. Can you imagine how many years those projects would be on hold in the current economic environment? Probably another 5-10 years.

I wouldn't bet on a private operator opening any more of the mountain during midweek either unless there were the crowds to support it. Nobody is going to operate every lift unless the money is coming in to support it.

I think the biggest thing a private operator would do is market and promote the areas better. They would allocate more money to those activities and less to racing and skier development. This would also result in much bigger crowds - aka waiting in a lift line in VT for 20-30 minutes to get on a high speed quad.

I wish any of you heading to VT next year the best of luck. For midweek riding you are probably going to be happy. If you mostly ride on the weekends you'll be back.

It's probably no surprise that IMO there are a lot of good things about Gore.

On the downside is snowmaking capacity (desire, commitment whatever) for sure.

For now, I'm over it with parking. While I don't agree with it, it's capitalism, which IMO is better than the alternatives.

On the upside, in no particular order:

Lack of slopeside lodging
Proximity to state land (think about it)
Terrain
Tree skiing
Lack of crowds or lines
Local people of North Creek/Johnsburg
Cost of a seasons pass

One thing that Danno said really rings true for me. You can increase everything without limit, except total terrain. So, more parking, more uphill capacity, and more snowmaking will move the crowds ultimately onto the trails. I was amazed at how LITTLE patience I had for lines when I skied Belleayre this year.

I'll never understand hardcore skiers wanting more parking.

Want to ruin the Darkside? Put a high speed quad in place of that little grinder we've got.

I want more snowmaking. But I never want it to be as good as Killingtons. I realize there is little danger of that. ;)

This whole issue of Gore vs Kmart is fascinating. Kmarts numbers aren't public but can be estimated.

From a revenue perspective Kmart looks to be about 3x the size of Gore. From an acreage perspective maybe 2x as big.

They do this thing on Alpine Zone - they call it a roll call... a simple question with a short answer.

Who's buying a pass in VT next year?

Jeff

03-29-2010, 09:10 PM

I certainly agree that snowmaking capacity is an issue. There were times this winter where the end result was a poor product, and the explanations sometimes didn't quite add up: power outages, equipment failures, etc. That probably is my #1 issue, especially with the increase in acreage that requires snowmaking attention (BR, Ski Bowl).

My #2 issue is mid-week lift operations. Harv has an interesting interview with Mike Pratt plus some additional discussion at:
http://harvey44.blogspot.com/2010/03/midweek-lift-operations.html
Harv, that's another $5 you owe me for the link. But seriously, I think some improvements could be made, like an announced operating schedule for mid-week operations that had the HP chair running at least some mid-week days. I'd like to hear other opinions on that topic, either here or at Harvey Road.

My #3 issue WAS paid parking. Yeah, I'm mostly over it too, but I still beleive that some significant tweaks could be made to how it has been implemented that would leave both sides satisfied.

On Gore vs. Kmart, Harv I think you significantly underestimated Kmart's revenue and acreage. Especially the revenue. To keep the comparison apples-to-apples, I wouldn't count any of Kmart's accomodations revenues, just lift tickets and day lodge revenues (equipment rentals, cafeteria/restaurants, lessons). I'll betcha it's more in the range of 5 to 10 times Gore.

Oh, and a Vermont pass next year?... I don't think so.

Frostillicus

03-29-2010, 09:45 PM

If Gore closes after this weekend and I can ski the rest of this season and next season on a K blackout pass, I am probably headed East.

Snowballs

04-21-2010, 10:12 PM

In today's Post Star there's a guy named J.P. Moron. He's going to jail for dealing drugs. I guess he's properly named.

WTH....Is Leno reading my posts? I told you guys it was funny! 8)

Posted: Wednesday, April 21, 2010 4:37 pm | (0) Comments

A local drug dealer's last name and a writeup in The Post-Star about him generated some laughs on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno on Monday.

Apparently amused by the defendant's name, Leno highlighted a Post-Star article on Glens Falls resident Jacques P. Moron in the portion of his show that focuses on funny headlines and newspaper write-ups

http://www.poststar.com/news/opinion/columns/ps/article_2f719196-4d86-11df-8efe-001cc4c03286.html

TomCat

04-22-2010, 08:11 AM

In NJ, the governor stated that he intends to retain most funding for the parks dept so the overtaxed residents have a low cost option for vacation. This was said after cutting aid for schools and towns. ALthough there is no way skiing can be considered low cost, it provides some hope that the pols will see the value in supporting recreation.

tom

Snowballs

05-17-2010, 01:12 PM

Today, 41 State Parks closed due to lack of a State Budget. NYRA, (horse racing) says they will close June 6. Saratoga's racing season is in jeopardy cuz they're not getting they're money from the Video Lottery Terminals which were approved 10 years ago but never implemented. In lieu of VLTs, the State is supposed to pay NYRA for the lack of VLT funds, which they haven't and an emergency bill submitted to loan the money to NYRA was not passed. Furthermore, NYRA is not receiveing it's share of money from NYC gambling operations. It's all corrupt!

How in the name of Man o' War, can these gambling institutions, which also receive massive State money,.....be perrenially broke?!!! This has been going on for years! Corruption.

You'ld think the braintrust in Albany would take a cue from what's happening in Greece. As one reads about Greece, et al, it all sounds strikingly familiar to New York's issues.

Given Albany's incredible ineptness....How long until the Financial Markets lose confidence in New York, as they did Greece, and accelerate New York's financial demise? I'm more than a little concerned about when New York tries to borrow major money again. ORDA's probably not too confident in any State funding for ORDA. But they likely have more eggs in their nest than they let on.

Wonder what the status of ORDA's Federal funding is? It won't be long until the world points it's finger at America and says "You have to reduce your deficit!" Good luck doing that.

In the meantime, the legislators in Albany are only working three days a week and they have NOT had any conference meetings on the budget in well over a month.

Spongeworthy

05-17-2010, 08:34 PM

How in the name of Man o' War, can these gambling institutions, which also receive massive State money,.....be perrenially broke?!!! This has been going on for years! Corruption.That pretty much nails it. NYRA was supposedly losing money even during the boom years.

Snowballs

05-17-2010, 09:32 PM

Wow! It's amazing this is still going on. Remember when they shook down the State for 600 mil a few years back? Plus they hadn't paid the State it's cut! And the "do gooder " Eliot Spitzer caved into them? I wonder now if they didn't know about his prostitution habit and threatened to expose him unless he gave in to their latest extortion. Course, some other Spitzer enemy did it anyway.

It's unbelievable they don't go in there with warrants and audit the begeezes out of them and put alot of people in prison. This is costing the State hundreds of millions of dollars, on an on going basis. The whole thing reeks of MOB and or "we'll squeal on you, too!", a very effective political tactic.