Season Pass Money Refund

[bigdogmom]

I have a question concerning purchasing season passes for next season. I have been reading about ORDA cutting funding to Gore/Whiteface next year and I am truly wondering if the mountains can be sustained without the input of funds. I certainly have no idea what the profit/loss situation is but from an outsider looking in, this seemed like a slow year. It most definitely was an abbreviated year compared to past ski seasons.

The following statement is copied from the Gore “Conditions of Use” page:

A MINIMUM NUMBER OF OPERATING DAYS IS NOT GUARANTEED.

A minimum number of operating days could be zero. If I purchase passes in June, and Gore does not open will those dollars be refunded to me?

The possibility of losing well over $1000.00 makes me nervous about my commitment to Gore. When considering the apparent difficult season, lack of ORDA funding, and the State withholding tax refunds, I believe an amendment to the “Conditions of Use” is appropriate. A statement such as:

PERSONS WHO PURCHASE FREQUENT SKIER PRODUCTS WILL BE REFUNDED MONIES IN FULL IN THE EVENT THAT EITHER GORE OR WHITFACE FAIL TO OPEN FOR ALPINE SKI OPERATIONS IN THE 2010/2011 SEASON

Are there any lawyer folk out there who have an opinion?

[adkskier]

Try mike@goremountain.com and let us know.

[bigdogmom]

I did email Mike Pratt earlier this morning. My past experience with Mike has been very good in that although we may disagree, he has been prompt and polite. I am being patient because what we need is a factual answer and that may take some time. I figure I have until June 17th before I have to commit my money to Gore.

[Spongeworthy]

This was posted on the Whiteface forum by asland, who went up to the administrative office and asked some questions:

"They also stated that even at worse case scenario, the mountain shuts down, all funds for season pass purchases would be returned."

http://forums.skiadk.com/viewtopic.php?t=2691&start=15

[Harvey44]

If you are inclined to buy a Gore or Whiteface pass I wouldn't worry about it.

While the fine print technically says they could never open the mountain, and you'd have no recourse, I'd bet a donut that that is not in the realm of possibility.

Gore will open next year. And if somehow it didn't, which is extremely unlikely IMO - you'd get a refund.

The level of rioting over something like that would make paid parking seem like a tea party.

[TomCat]

Even the state legislature can't be stupid enough to force Gore/Whiteface to close for the season. It would make no sense to have all those assets sitting idle all year long. The ORDA debt still needs to be paid off and unless they are also considering a default they will need to figure out something anyway.

My concern is reduced operations. Less snowmaking, fewer lifts operating, regular mid week closings, etc. If that happens, then I think there will be a significant exodus for the following year. And I do think the legislature could be stupid enough to only think about the current year.



tom

[bigdogmom]

Thanks for your suggestions. I am discussing our options, but your suggestion is very simple.
Mike

[Snowballs]

My concern is reduced operations. Less snowmaking, fewer lifts operating, regular mid week closings, etc. If that happens, then I think there will be a significant exodus for the following year. And I do think the legislature could be stupid enough to only think about the current year.tom

That's a good summation and the most probable reality. Hard to imagine it working out any other way.

Oddly enough, the specter BDM raised is also a possiblity. Things are that bad and worse at NY.fubar.gov. Seriously. Notice Pratt left the door open. Wide open. He didn't bother even trying to close it a little bit in that email.

It's a long shot, but it's visible on the radar.

We should know something in a month or two. One game changer Albany may encounter is a reduced ablity to borrow. They've already plundered most funds set aside for specific programs. They call it sweeping. Worker's Comp got swept last week. Highway and many others are already gone......... They're running out of places to sweep money from. Mr. Brick Wall approaches.

[Harvey44]

bigdogmom ...

Sorry if I'm being dense here ...

Is Mike's email a response to ... "will you amend the “Conditions of Use” statement?

If so ... would be interesting to see what they use for a minimum number of ops days.

It'd have to be more than one!

[bigdogmom]

Harvey44....

Yes, I wanted some assurance from Mike that he would put something in writing regarding the refund of money if Gore fails to open.

For as improbable as Gore NOT opening may seem to some, I see our State in meltdown mode. Look at California, NY is not that far behind. We are having our tax refunds withheld, the State parks are closing, The State is withholding education funds, and even Saratoga is at serious risk of not having a race season this year. And even if Saratoga runs, the purses are so diminished that it is losing its prestige status that will be difficult to restore. Our State is a running joke on Saturday Night Live…how much more evidence of imminent collapse do we need?

And thanks a lot for seeding the thought of a “single ski day season”.

Here is the current statement:

CONDITIONS OF USE

1.All purchases final. NO REFUNDS FOR ANY REASON INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO: SICKNESS, INJURY, HEALTH PROBLEMS, RELOCATION, WEATHER CONDITIONS, NATURAL OR MANMADE DISASTERS. A MINIMUM NUMBER OF OPERATING DAYS IS NOT GUARANTEED. SEASON PASSES ARE NON-TRANSFERABLE AND NOT AVAILABLE FOR RESALE.

NY’s fiscal crisis is certainly a “MANMADE DISASTER”

[bigdogmom]

This week I followed up and emailed Mike Pratt that as the June 17th deadline approaches I was still concerned that the “CONDITIONS OF USE” statement was not amended to assure that funds would be returned in the event that Gore fails to open for the 2010/2011 season.

Emily replied to my email and she said: “Our season pass information was published in late March and it won't be revised”.

She also stated: “However from my knowledge and experience, I would be confident in purchasing a 10/11 pass.”

I believe that Gore would feel obligated to return our money if the mountain failed to open. I believe that the State of NY would want to keep our money or return it at a much later date.

Here is the deal, it looks like Gore is planning to open and operate in some capacity in 2010/2011. But what if they don’t? Then we have missed an opportunity to purchase passes early at a discount from the neighboring mountains and our funds may be locked up for a while with the State.

We are witnessing some strange events here in NY State. Thatcher Park is now closed and horse breeders are currently moving horses out of Saratoga due to the uncertainty of the summer meet. Those are realities I never thought I would see.

If I do purchase a pass, I’ll probably ask Mike to sign something that says I can have my money back if Gore fails to open. I’ll probably be ridiculed by the Gore staff and others on this forum but money is money and I doubt many of us would willingly part with well over a thousand dollars with no guarantees.

[Snowballs]

Bravo Bigdogmom. I agree with you 100%. Several things can be gleened from this thread if one is experienced in doing legal battle with the Politicos. Notice that you sent your email to Pratt but he had his underling respond to it and a vague response it was. He won't put anything FIRM in writing on this issue. This gives him plausible deniablity. IF there is nothing to worry about, Pratt could of very easily responded in writing.." There is nothing to worry about. Gore will operate at the same capacity it always has. In the unlikely event Gore does not open, Gore will gladly refund season pass money."

That would have been the easy, logical response. It would reassure would be pass purchasers and be good for Gore's preseason sales! YET Pratt chose not to respond that way. Neither did he have Emily respond that way. I do find that curious.

Pratt normally responds himself to his email, even ones with messages he doesn't like. I know this first hand. 8)

Asland brought us some info earlier in this thread, but it's not an answer that Whiteface wrote down, hence it's deniable - nonbinding in a Court of Law. It speaks volumes when they will say one thing in a private conversation, but not COMMIT to it publicly or in writing. IF what Asland brought us is their Official position it would make sense and be good for their preseason sales if Pratt, et al would address it publicly. HE SPECIFICALLY CHOSE NOT TO!

These are key distinctions. It's how the game is played by these types.

Pratt/ORDA will straddle the fence on this issue. They seek to protect their sales and those of the area's businesses. The last thing they want is to arm us with evidence that we could use in a Class Action Suit that would include Pass refunds and Fees and Costs of Suit.

[Snowballs]

There is a difference between the normal situation where the nonrefundable Pass disclaimer applies and the situation we are now facing. Normally the nonrefundable disclaimer comes into play if Mother Nature is noncooperative. Excessive warm weather, earthquake/tornado/fire takes out the resort....yada blahs like that are beyond Gore's control. No fault of their own.

That is a completely different animal than we are now facing. A business which would take our money up front and then fails to uphold their end of the contract due to their financial situation, well that becomes a fraudulent transaction. If they know beforehand they will not be able to fulfill their obligation to us, theft by deception. This is why we need clarification. It's not cool if they try to hide beyond the reasonablity of the first scenario when infact the second scenario is the likely reality we face.

Things are bad enough in NY that ORDA may not receive any funds from the State. Depending on ORDA's solvency, it may or may not effect their opening of the mtns. The 5 million State contribution is but a fraction of ORDA's budget. 3%? However, strong arm posturing to extract funds is a big playing card here in NY. ORDA may also choose to neglect Gore in favor of Placid. Or Orda simply may be so over extended that losing the State's 5 million, the expenses of ORDA building the Placid Convention Center, loss of preason sales may be sufficient to shut the doors at Gore. In this scenario, my guess is they would cover their butt by opening, but with severely limited operations and even more crappy or nonexistant snowmaking.

Indeed, UNLESS there was a mechanical snowmaking problem last year that has since been repaired, OR ORDA kicks in more money for snowmaking, the addition of the Ski Bowl to the snowmaking load will result still in even worse ski conditions.

If preseason pass sales are down, Pratt may come out with a vague, noncommittal statement to attempt wooing back his clients. Likely it will be in a " Pratt friendly venue " where he gets pats on the back and will not be cornered into giving concrete answers to difficult questions. That's the road, the venue he usually chooses.

[Spongeworthy]

The last thing they want is to arm us with evidence that we could use in a Class Action Suit that would include Pass refunds and Fees and Costs of Suit.Class actions are bullspit. Class members get little. Only the attorneys make money :x

[bigdogmom]

I’ve been thinking about my post where I stated that I would ask the Gore management to sign a statement that will guarantee that my funds will be returned in the event that Gore fails to open.

My thoughts are:

1) I don’t believe that any one person at Gore has the authority to sign a statement concerning this issue. Mike is the General Manager but who writes the checks?

2) I don’t think Mike would sign a statement from me because ….who the heck am I anyways.

3) I have been a fairly outspoken critic of Gore this past season due to premium parking and the lack of snowmaking. Perhaps Gore does not need an old curmudgeon like me at the mountain and they may refuse to sell me a ticket if I ask them to sign a statement. As much as I hate to say it, I fear I may be digging myself a hole. The facts are that I really want to ski next year and Gore is the closest mountain that has the terrain I enjoy. If I keep poking at this issue I might be the one left without a pass.

4) I do believe that Gore will open and operate next season thereby fulfilling their end of the deal. I have no legal recourse if the mountain operates at a diminished level of expectation.

5) Last and most obvious, if Gore takes in thousands and thousands of dollars in advance from thousands of customers and then reneges, the uproar will be deafening and we will all get our money back. The concern will be; how long will it take to obtain the refund.

So I am done with this. With trepidation I will purchase my passes next week. I feel a bit defeated in that I do think my point was justified but when push comes to shove I am at a greater risk of being denied a pass and that too is uncomfortable.

I will feel vindicated if the “Conditions of Use” Statement is re-written for the 2011/2012 season.

[Harvey44]

I’ve been thinking about my post where I stated that I would ask the Gore management to sign a statement that will guarantee that my funds will be returned in the event that Gore fails to open.

My thoughts are:

1) I don’t believe that any one person at Gore has the authority to sign a statement concerning this issue. Mike is the General Manager but who writes the checks?

2) I don’t think Mike would sign a statement from me because ….who the heck am I anyways.

3) I have been a fairly outspoken critic of Gore this past season due to premium parking and the lack of snowmaking. Perhaps Gore does not need an old curmudgeon like me at the mountain and they may refuse to sell me a ticket if I ask them to sign a statement. As much as I hate to say it, I fear I may be digging myself a hole. The facts are that I really want to ski next year and Gore is the closest Montanan that has the terrain I enjoy. If I keep poking at this issue I might be the one left without a pass.

4) I do believe that Gore will open and operate next season thereby fulfilling their end of the deal. I have no legal recourse if the mountain operates at a diminished level of expectation.

5) Last and most obvious, if Gore takes in thousands and thousands of dollars in advance from thousands of customers and then reneges, the uproar will be deafening and we will all get our money back. The concern will be; how long will it take to obtain the refund.

So I am done with this. With trepidation I will purchase my passes next week. I feel a bit defeated in that I do think my point was justified but when push comes to shove I am at a greater risk of being denied a pass and that too is uncomfortable.

I will feel vindicated if the “Conditions of Use” Statement is re-written for the 2011/2012 season.

My two cents - I think it's a reasonable approach. I think you are right that nobody who actually works on the hill has the authority to do what you are asking. Hey it's certainly a reasonable request, but this is new territory and there probably isn't anybody who could/would do it - even the governor.

I also doubt anybody holds a grudge about outspoken customers. They certainly shouldn't. Put it this way, if you didn't really CARE about it, if you weren't invested in Gore for whatever reason, you wouldn't complain, you'd just head to Okemo.

And the biggest point is #5. As I said above - the uproar would make paid parking angst look like a tea party.

As I said in the other thread, we jumped in. It's a risk, but not the biggest one I've ever taken. With the land we own in the area, we're coming up in the winter no matter what. We're paying our property tax and plowing, and utilities and mortgage. If we didn't buy a pass we'd still spend all the rest of it.

If I can slide down hill with the help of the lifts at Gore, it will be a good thing.

[highpeaksdrifter]

http://pressrepublican.com/0100_news/x336265547/ORDA-funding-secured-in-state-budget

[AdironRider]

Great news.

Work is going on, money is now coming in. From afar, it looks like luck has been going Gore's way since the snow melted.