Beginners Trails

[Weez]

Ok, I enjoyed myself so much i've decided to come back president's day weekend. :D Couple questions, I only made about a dozen runs off of face lift this trip because i was with my 13yo and 16yo who never ski'd before this weekend. My son picked it up quickly and made some runs with me by the end of the 3rd day and never had any problems. When skiing with him the 3rd day we stayed on Easy Street/Boreen, i felt the first drop off of Easy Street should have probably been labelled blue as well as parts of Boreen, that said he ski'd them fine after getting a few runs under his belt. My wife was taking a lesson and the instructor recommended we take the gondola the next time and ski excelsior, is excelsior similiar to the harder parts of Easy Street/Boreen?

[ajl50]

With the exception of the first drop which can be tricky due to crowds/and skiied off condtions for any skier excelsior is a great blue to improve on. It is long with good little drops and no scary long pitches. Really one of the best intermediate trails to learn on.
Def. follow the advice and ski it. You will love it.
But- as a note- ski it early as it does get skied off- esp. during pres. day weekend.

[NPN]

And, for that matter, they could handle a trip down Follies as well, and then they could enjoy the real bonus of Whiteface ( namely the views from the summit ).

[SKIdds]

If the snow conditions are excellent and the crowds aren't bad, Excelsior is a wonderful intermediate trail that a strong beginner could make their way down and have a lot of fun on.

Those are a couple of significant if's, especially over a holiday weekend, especially at Iceface under what are normally considered good conditions. Sure, even a holiday weekend at Whiteface isn't crowded by any other mountain's standards, but it can get busy in spots on the mountain, especially on Excelsior. So be careful.

Problem is, even when snow conditions on the mountain are very good, the combination of traffic and wind make the top section of Excelsior a dicey proposition for a beginning skier. Even this past weekend, on Saturday, when the mountain got 12 - 16 inches of powder overnight, the upper part of Excelsior was not something I would have wanted to bring a beginner on, unless I was sure they could handle the hard packed ice they were going to face. Ice that even accomplished skiers would have a hard time getting an edge on. Unless your beginner is able to glide over such (sometimes long) sections of icy conditions and use the soft snow on the other side to turn in.......well, they could be thrown off their game before they get to the very nice and very skiable sections of Excelsior you will find below. If you can get them as far as the first turn where Parons comes in from the summit you've got it made, just be prepared that it could be unpleasant for a beginner to get that far, especially if they are the type to get flustered easily.

Add President's Day weekend crowds to the situation I just described and you can have an awful lot of traffic trying to get down a pretty icy stretch, even under good conditions.

I'd say the same can hold true for Follies (Parons, too). If the trails are skied off to the typical icy boilerplate underneith these trails would be unpleasand for a beginner, view or no view. But on a perfect packed powder day groomed to a nice corduroy they can be a dream.

Take the safe way and do what we do. You go up there first and ski these trails before you bring anyone up. Only then will you know if getting your beginner down these trails will be a dream or a nightmare.

[AdironRider]

Dude, your making whiteface out to be a skating rink, and that simply just isnt the case.

In my unbiased opinion the work Whiteface has done on their snowmaking system is results in vastly improved conditions even over just 3 or so years ago. After sampling many other mountains one will find that Whiteface conditions are on par or better than anything else on the East Coast. Im not saying theyre Jay Peak, but its good.

[highpeaksdrifter]

especially at Iceface under what are normally considered good conditions.

You are free to write whatever you want here, but IMO that Iceface reference is not only inaccurate, it’s dated and lame. :?

[NPN]

especially at Iceface under what are normally considered good conditions.

You are free to write whatever you want here, but IMO that Iceface reference is not only inaccurate, it’s dated and lame. :?

Especially when you consider that our snowmakers possess just enough smarts to not blow water all night long in sub zero temps like they did on Hawkeye last Saturday night into Sunday a.m..

Got skates?

[ajl50]

SkIdds has a case of the mondays.
Iceface- come on now. That's as old as reebok pumps and day-glo one piece suits. Things get skiied off... EVERYWHERE in the northeast. Want a perfect groomed run- get on it early. That's good advice for any mountain in the world.

[SKIdds]

Snowmaking improvements or no, the combination of cold and wind at Whiteface tends to contribute to it getting "skied off" moreso than at the 18 or so other East Coast resorts I've skied. That isn't a knock on Whiteface.....just a reality IMHO. Of course everyone's experiences vary. Sorry if some think that opinion doesn't belong on this board. However, if Weez wants to be able to adequately assess whether he should take his beginner wife up on Excelsior, I believe my comments are spot on. The upper section of Excelsior was "skied off" before many people had a chance to ski it on Satuday. Again, not a knock on the mountain, just a reality.

Fine, I take the Iceface reference back. Sure, it dates back to the days before Whiteface could lay claim to 98% snowmaking. But Whiteface was sometimes referred to as that for a reason. OK, maybe it also has something to do with the Mondays....a very sore Monday at that.....but did all those reasons disappear? On Saturday Patrol roped off Approach early in the afternoon and I wouldn't be surprised if it had something to do with it being an ice skating rink unless you were able to stick to the extreme edges of the trail. Maybe it wasn't that, but the trail wasn't in great shape for a powder day. The upper portion of Excelsior wasn't great on Saturday either. Honestly, for anyone who skied on Saturday are you gonna tell me that the pitch on Excelsior above where Paron's comes in wasn't much more difficult than the "difficult" section of Boreen that people talk about, that Weez asked about, especially given the conditions on Saturday? For a beginner who is going to ski straight down the middle of the trail and is clueless about what to do on a wide swath of ice it sure as heck wouldn't have been much fun.

I've had my experiences with my beginner wife wigging out on a pitch she was more than capable of handling simply because the conditions were tough. That includes the very pitch on Boreen that Weez referenced, on a day when the conditions were better than they were on the upper section of Excelsior on Saturday. I just don't want him to get his wife up on Excelsior under the wrong conditions and have him regret it and her never forget it. Sorry for the honest answer to a very good question.

Sure, the rest of the mountain was great on Saturday, but the wind seems to have a profound effect on some areas of Whiteface. If ever someone might think they could bring a beginner up on Excelsior it might be after a 12 - 16 inch dump. But it isn't that simple. Yes, Whiteface does a great job with the mountain and snowmaking. It's amazing what they were able to accomplish in the last two weeks. However, there are always going to be places that are more effected by the elements than others, and the upper section of Excelsior after you get off the gondi seems to be one of them. At least it is every time I ski there.

Yes, ski it early, but also check it out before you bring a beginner up. I apologize for my brutal honesty while still giving props to the mountain staff and all they do.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

Iceface isn't a bad nickname, necessarily, if you take pride in being able to ski any conditions. Whiteface may have the best terrain and great views, but, at $69 a day, it definitely does NOT regularly have conditions that compare to its Vermont or New Hampshire counterparts. K-mart charges $72 and currently has 61 miles of skiing. I doubt Whiteface has much more than 10 miles open. $69. I still can't believe it. Jay Peak is $59 (with 66 of 76 trails open)....

But, that's opinion, I suppose. As far as flaming someone for bringing up the Iceface nickname, IMHO the nickname is still warranted for Excelsior. Despite the commendable efforts to widen the trail and cut additional routes down from Little Whiteface (e.g., John's Bypass), it's a reality that Excelsior sees far too much traffic since the installation of the gondola. The trail is simply too busy and, despite the best efforts of the mountain crew (they do a good job when allowed to), it does get consistently skied off. Regarding the original poster's question, if I had to take them up, I would probably only ski the trail with true novices in the early morning. You will encounter much faster skiers and boarders, more crowds, worse conditions and slightly more challenging terrain on Excelsior than the first drop on Boreen (but, the view from the observiation deck of Lake Placid and the High Peaks is quite stunning and might be worth it for at least one run).

Then again, the poster's kids are 13 and 16, so they can probably deal with anything.

[freeheelwilly]

So friggin' stupid. :roll: A few thoughts in response to a few really stupid ones I just read:

The wind was cranked up all over the east coast on Saturday - not just Wilmington New York. Mt Washington reported sustained winds over 90 mph. Sustained. I only skied WF Saturday but I'll just bet it was sketchy in places all over the East. Any takers?

WTF were you doin' on Excelsior on Saturday? WTF were you doin' with a beginner on the hill on Saturday? Saturday was awesome but not for beginners. WTF?

K-mart sucks. At any time and at any price. Don't mention it again unless it's to express a similar sentiment.

The "too icey" complaint, although occasionally true, is often (mis)used by shitty skiers/riders as an excuse. A few weeks ago I was stopped and standing on upper valley. The coverage was edge-to-edge and perfect. Some flailer spun out of control for no apparent reason as he passed me, crossed his tips and went over the handlebars. As he was getting up and brushing himself off his comment to me was "This ice sucks". It's not the ice that sucked.

[tjf67]

I brought a friend of mine skiing for the first time at whiteface. He never put a ski on in his life. Put him on a pair of my old skis and brought him to the summit. His first run on skis was sky. He was not a happy camper but I tell you this he learned to ski real fast. Ballsy move on his part. Looking back it was not a nice thing to do to someone but I have a feeling he would have done it to me.

[ajl50]

MUD PUDDLES- i loved that place- went there when i was a camp counselor. Nice name. ..
I agree freeheel about the "icy" excuse. Over the holiday there were some bad parts but on sunday after seven inches fo snow, when the trails were perfectly groomed I heard people in the base lodge complaining about the ice...come on. Learn to edge ( or stop heel sliding with the snowboard all the time)

[Weez]

So friggin' stupid. :roll: A few thoughts in response to a few really stupid ones I just read:

The wind was cranked up all over the east coast on Saturday - not just Wilmington New York. Mt Washington reported sustained winds over 90 mph. Sustained. I only skied WF Saturday but I'll just bet it was sketchy in places all over the East. Any takers?

WTF were you doin' on Excelsior on Saturday? WTF were you doin' with a beginner on the hill on Saturday? Saturday was awesome but not for beginners. WTF?

K-mart sucks. At any time and at any price. Don't mention it again unless it's to express a similar sentiment.

The "too icey" complaint, although occasionally true, is often (mis)used by shitty skiers/riders as an excuse. A few weeks ago I was stopped and standing on upper valley. The coverage was edge-to-edge and perfect. Some flailer spun out of control for no apparent reason as he passed me, crossed his tips and went over the handlebars. As he was getting up and brushing himself off his comment to me was "This ice sucks". It's not the ice that sucked.

Take a few deep breaths, this rant is all over the lot so I'm not quite sure if this post was directed at me? or at Skidds? Either way No one ski'd excelsior Saturday so not sure where that came from, I was on the hill with a beginner on Saturday because we spent the 2 previous days solely on the kids campus, mixing bowl and wolf and i felt he was ready. Turns out and my hunch was right, he was ready, we made quite a few runs on the Easy Street/Boreen on Saturday and Im glad we did. It looks like you missed the reason for my original post, the instructor who was working with my wife recommended we take the gondola and ski excelsior, she saw my son ski several times and felt he was ready, she recommended this to us on Saturday, I felt unsure of it with him so i decided to ask here first rather then learn the hardway. We were there for the weekend and didnt have the luxury of skiing Sunday because the kids had midterms on Monday so i was determined to ski Saturday weather or not, Im glad we did.

As for "K-Mart" Im a n00b here and not up on the lingo so I am assuming "K-Mart" is Killington?, if so, you are entitled to your opinion but just as you are entitled to yours, I am entitled to mine, I put the skiing at Killington on par or better than Whiteface, I put the area well below the LP area and thats why I decided to try LP this time, I am glad I did. I will return to the LP area everytime over Killington, not because of the trails or conditions but because of the people and the village area.

[SKIdds]

Whatever happened to reading for context? :roll:

This isn't a thread about overall conditions conditions at Whiteface, specifically on Saturday. I never said anything about anyplace on the mountain being "too icy". I pointed out that conditions on most of the mountain were great on Saturday. However this is a thread about bringing a beginner up on Excelsior on any given day. In that context the fact that the top portion of Excelsior is often wind blown and skied off, to the point that it could make it very unpleasant for a beginner to naviagate, is very relevant. Ice is part of the game. As agreed, for certain spots on the mountain the icy comment is true, and on more than just rare occasion. You just need to know where those spots are, even if the rest of the mountain is great. There's nothing wrong with that, it it just a piece of info that someone needs to factor in when determining if they should bring a beginner up there.

Yes, it was windy everywhere on Saturday. Who said it wasn't? In general, throughout the course of a season, I think wind is more of a factor at Whiteface than a lot of other mountains, particularly on certain trails with certain exposures. I think the upper section of Excelsior is one such place. You are free to disagree and you ski there more.

IMHO is would be irresponsible to tell someone to just bring a beginner up on Excelsior without scouting the trail and being properly warned for the conditions you might find. Not that they are potentially going to be "bad", or "too icy", they just are what they are and may be tough for a beginner even though the rest of the mountain may be great.

Hey, color me a little sensitive to skiers being where they don't belong. My brother was lucky to come away with only a broken ski on Westway at Hunter when someone who clearly didn't belong there wasn't prepared for the pitch and couldn't handle the icy conditions. How many runs down Skyward have a lot of us lost helping a skier who shouldn't have been there collect their gear or wait for patrol? So if someone asks about bringing someone on a trail that may be above their ability level unless conditions are ideal I'm going to share what I've experienced so they can make a responsible, informed decision.

Sorry.

[Tsavolion]

My sister is a very beginner skier and usually stays on the greens. I have brought her on excelsior before, but made the mistake of doing it on a busy weekend once and she freaked out. i think the trail is doable for a beginner, but depends on the crowds/conditions. it is turn 1-3 that get bottlednecked from beginners that think they can handle it. a beginner can handle the trail, but it should be scoped out first. Also important to lead them down the that area and keep them away from the bottleneck by having them stay to the far right and not go down the middle like everyone else. it just depends on the conditions, it isnt a steep trail by any means, not steeper than some parts of the trails you mention.

[Weez]

My sister is a very beginner skier and usually stays on the greens. I have brought her on excelsior before, but made the mistake of doing it on a busy weekend once and she freaked out. i think the trail is doable for a beginner, but depends on the crowds/conditions. it is turn 1-3 that get bottlednecked from beginners that think they can handle it. a beginner can handle the trail, but it should be scoped out first. Also important to lead them down the that area and keep them away from the bottleneck by having them stay to the far right and not go down the middle like everyone else. it just depends on the conditions, it isnt a steep trail by any means, not steeper than some parts of the trails you mention.

Thanks Tsavolion, I think between what ive read from you and Skidds he is ready for Excelsior but ill make sure we do it during the week first to avoid the crowds. This was exactly the info I was looking for. :wink:

[Denison]

... My wife was taking a lesson and the instructor recommended we take the gondola the next time and ski excelsior, is excelsior similiar to the harder parts of Easy Street/Boreen?

Weez, try Excelsior to Lower Northway instead, Continue to Broadway. This would be my pick for beginner-to-intermidiate, regardless of conditions. Once comfortable, try Parons from the summit.

http://forums.skiadk.com/albums/album20/map.jpg

Make sure your skis are sharp - while people were complaining about icey conditions on MLK weekend Saturday, my skis were handlind yellow frozen ice/hardpack surface with confidence

[tjf67]

Since that bypass trail has been open the traffic has been reduced dramatically. I have experienced better conditions on ex this year than ever before. I can't recall any problems on X this year.
I think the bottle neck is a memory cause I have not seen it this year.

[freeheelwilly]

Either way No one ski'd excelsior Saturday so not sure where that came from,

It came from right here Sherlock:


Even this past weekend, on Saturday, when the mountain got 12 - 16 inches of powder overnight, the upper part of Excelsior was not something I would have wanted to bring a beginner on,

It's not all about you lil' weezie. 8)



As for "K-Mart" Im a n00b here and not up on the lingo so I am assuming "K-Mart" is Killington?, if so, you are entitled to your opinion but just as you are entitled to yours, I am entitled to mine, I put the skiing at Killington on par or better than Whiteface, :lol: :lol: You are foolish!

When the wind blows the snow off of one place, it puts it someplace else. Find the lee and you'll find where to ski! 8)

Thanks for playin'!

[Weez]

Either way No one ski'd excelsior Saturday so not sure where that came from,

It came from right here Sherlock:


Even this past weekend, on Saturday, when the mountain got 12 - 16 inches of powder overnight, the upper part of Excelsior was not something I would have wanted to bring a beginner on,

It's not all about you lil' weezie. 8)



As for "K-Mart" Im a n00b here and not up on the lingo so I am assuming "K-Mart" is Killington?, if so, you are entitled to your opinion but just as you are entitled to yours, I am entitled to mine, I put the skiing at Killington on par or better than Whiteface, :lol: :lol: You are foolish!

When the wind blows the snow off of one place, it puts it someplace else. Find the lee and you'll find where to ski! 8)

Thanks for playin'!

OK Sherlock we can play word games all day long as Skidds alluded to earlier why not read the context instead of just spouting off oh great one. This whole post is about beginners on Excelsior not intermediate not expert. Are intermediates not supposed to ski Excelsior on a windy day now because the great one says so?

[SKIdds]

Hey Sherlock...er...I mean Weezie, in case you didn't catch it I'm Skidmark now. :wink: Clever guy with those tricky names he is. Oh, the barbs! I don't know how I'll ever recover. :twisted:

It would be nice if someone could answer the questions asked rather than picking at other people's posts. Anywho.....I think you have your answer. Scout the trail, hit it early, and be prepared for a chance of seeing a little ice at the top. Anyone disagree with that?

Ok, now for those so inclined you can go back to playin' your games.

[freeheelwilly]

:lol: :lol:

Weezie - you've got your answer here. Fact is, there are beginners and there are beginners. Only you know what kind your dealing with. Excelsior can be sketchy - no doubt about it.

Glad you liked the place enough to come back. And when your kids improve a bit and can start taking advantage of WF's steeps, you'll forget all about K-Mart. K-mart doesn't have anything like Upper Skyward or Cloudspin - not even a fair approximation. Once you and the kids can ski all of WF you'll scoff at K-mart too.

Top areas in the East: (no particular order)

WF
Jay
Sugarbush
MRG
Stowe

You don't really think K-mart belongs in that list, do ya'?

Now lighten up Francis. :lol:

[SKIdds]

See, willy and I agree. :wink:

I especially agree with the list of top areas in the east, although I'd specifically highlight the Castlerock area of Sugarbush.

[Weez]

Weez, try Excelsior to Lower Northway instead, Continue to Broadway. This would be my pick for beginner-to-intermidiate, regardless of conditions. Once comfortable, try Parons from the summit.

Make sure your skis are sharp - while people were complaining about icey conditions on MLK weekend Saturday, my skis were handlind yellow frozen ice/hardpack surface with confidence

Denison,

Thanks for the info, will definitely try that route in a few weeks :D

Weez

[Face4Me]

Denison wrote:


Weez, try Excelsior to Lower Northway instead, Continue to Broadway. This would be my pick for beginner-to-intermidiate, regardless of conditions. Once comfortable, try Parons from the summit.

Make sure your skis are sharp - while people were complaining about icey conditions on MLK weekend Saturday, my skis were handlind yellow frozen ice/hardpack surface with confidence



Denison,

Thanks for the info, will definitely try that route in a few weeks

Weez

That route is often a better option than taking Excelsior all the way down ... you just have to watch out for people coming in from Upper Northway as you go by it. I take my 6 year old that way a lot. Since they put the permanently mounted guns on the Lower Northway trail, it's usually got pretty decent snow cover on it.

[SKIdds]

Lower Northway can be deceptively hairball. It's straight and you can pick up some serious speed and then all of the sudden, if you keep going straight or bear left depending upon your point of view, it throws you over a little lip and onto the bottom of excelsior. It can get real wind polished too down near its end so...be warned.
Blasphemer...heretic....you are pure :twisted: . Instead of burning at the stake, send him nekkid up the Summit Quad until something falls off. :shock:

[freeheelwilly]

blah, blah, blah

:lol: :lol: