Empire

[highpeaksdrifter]

Talkin things over on the gondi ride (you know how it goes) and the topic can up about making snow on Empire. The consensus was that it would be an easy cover and that hoses could probably be dragged to it the way they are on John’s Bypass. Is this possible? If so do they not do it because they want to keep it a old time traditional classic trail or other reason?

So a few boarders pouching it Sat.

[Denison]

my pick is snowmaking and OPEN over "old time traditional classic trail" and CLOSED. empire is the one trail (except Glades/Slides) I never been able to ski, because whenever i'm on the hill - it always closed.

[tjf67]

my pick is snowmaking and OPEN over "old time traditional classic trail" and CLOSED. empire is the one trail (except Glades/Slides) I never been able to ski, because whenever i'm on the hill - it always closed.

The only time it is decent is when it is closed. When it opens it is skied off is 20 minutes. There are giant ski killer rocks in there.

[takeahike46er]

Empire is a classic run. There is no doubt that it is closed way too often; however, it is my opinion that Empire should remain without snowmaking. It is too narrow to make snow without destroying the vegetation at the trail's edges. A better idea would be to do some trail work in the off season to improve how it skiis when there is snowcover. Of course, there is always poaching. :lol:

WF management appears to be aiming for snowmaking on the trail considering they want it widened (easier to make snow). I hope this never happens.

[Jack the Ripper]

Empire is a classic run. There is no doubt that it is closed way too often; however, it is my opinion that Empire should remain without snowmaking. It is too narrow to make snow without destroying the vegetation at the trail's edges. A better idea would be to do some trail work in the off season to improve how it skiis when there is snowcover. Of course, there is always poaching. :lol:

WF management appears to be aiming for snowmaking on the trail considering they want it widened (easier to make snow). I hope this never happens.

WIDENED EMPIRE. :shock: :shock: :shock: Blasphemy. BLASPHEMY. How dare they even consider it. Why bother making it wider? If it ain't broken, don't fix it. WF management needs to stop worrying so much about trail counts. Who cares if it's not open all the time? That's part of that trails charm. It would be a waste of resources to widen that trail. What's the goal here to make every trail as wide as Skyward and/or to always have 75 trails open? Are they trying to make WF the Killington of the Dacks? I'm too upset to discuss this anymore. :evil:

[NPN]

Never do understand why you all get so jumpy on this subject. I've been skiing Whiteface for the past nine years, and have never seen Empire open other than the odd off time, or two. At least if they are willing to do something that could make it a more often than not open trail wouldn't that be better than it not being open at all?

Never do understand why you all get so jumpy on this subject. I've been skiing Whiteface for the past nine years, and have never seen Empire open other than the odd off time, or two. At least if they are willing to do something that could make it a more often than not open trail wouldn't that be better than it not being open at all?

Even when Empire is open I often wonder why I bother skiing it. It's only good for one run. Like Tim said once it's skied off it's a sheet of ice and sucks. Then they close it the next day so someone doen't die on it again. I vote to widen it so it's a usable trial. It never gets sun so if the could blow it and maintain it it would stay great for a long time.

[highpeaksdrifter]

Never do understand why you all get so jumpy on this subject. I've been skiing Whiteface for the past nine years, and have never seen Empire open other than the odd off time, or two. At least if they are willing to do something that could make it a more often than not open trail wouldn't that be better than it not being open at all?

Even when Empire is open I often wonder why I bother skiing it. It's only good for one run. Like Tim said once it's skied off it's a sheet of ice and sucks. Then they close it the next day so someone doen't die on it again. I vote to widen it so it's a usable trial. It never gets sun so if the could blow it and maintain it it would stay great for a long time.

No way. If I had a vote I'd never would want that. They don't cut trails like that anymore. It's classic New England (yes, I know we are in NY). Narrow, steep, and technical. No way they should turn it into a McTrail.

Never do understand why you all get so jumpy on this subject. I've been skiing Whiteface for the past nine years, and have never seen Empire open other than the odd off time, or two. At least if they are willing to do something that could make it a more often than not open trail wouldn't that be better than it not being open at all?

Even when Empire is open I often wonder why I bother skiing it. It's only good for one run. Like Tim said once it's skied off it's a sheet of ice and sucks. Then they close it the next day so someone doen't die on it again. I vote to widen it so it's a usable trial. It never gets sun so if the could blow it and maintain it it would stay great for a long time.

No way. If I had a vote I'd never would want that. They don't cut trails like that anymore. It's classic New England (yes, I know we are in NY). Narrow, steep, and technical. No way they should turn it into a McTrail.

Better to ski it than look at it!!!! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[takeahike46er]

If they widen Empire and add snowmaking they might as well rename the trail 'cause it isn't Empire unless its narrow and natural.

[NPN]

So, this is all about nostalgia?

Do you all see weather patterns coming that the rest of the global warming community doesn't?

If it wasn't for snowmaking, we wouldn't be skiing in the East, so, suddenly, we all are holding out for a rare big hit wonder to get our two days in the Slides, or one day out of ten year moment on Empire?

I'm not trying to be a dick, I'm just trying to be realistic.

[SKIdds]

"Classic New England" trails have nothing to do with nostalgia. That's a bunch of huey. It has to do with tight, technical skiing the way mother nature intended it. It takes a pair for the skier to to ski it well, as well for mountain management to open it. It challenges the skier and is really what, for me, makes skiing fun. Sure, high speed cruisers and wide thoroughfares can be a lot of fun.....but they aren't what skiing is all about for some. So why make every trail fit that bill?

Saying that the only way Empire can ever be useful as a trail is to widen it and blow snow on it is garbage. Guess what folks, Sugarbush has had the same amount of snow year to date as Whiteface. They are 100% open. That includes Castle Rock....and that includes trails like Rumble and Lift Line. You think there are rocks and other obstacles on Empire? Nothing compared to those trails, yet those trails are open. They don't make snow on Castle Rock. In fact, Sugarbusg only boasts 68% snowmaking, yet they are 100% open, including the woods. Mad River Glen has even less snowmaking, has had the same amount of snow as Whiteface, and if you want to launch off the waterfall on Paradise it's open for your enjoyment.

So, Empire could be skied much more often, as difficult, rocky, or icy as it may be, without being widened and getting snowmaking. Unfortunately, for various reasons it seems Whiteface managment can't be as aggressive as other resorts in opening terrain. That's ok. It is what it is and we can be happy with it. Whiteface is still a great mountain and management does a great job. But don't sit there and try and say the only way Empire could be skied more is if it were homogonized like so many other trails. No, I'll take the occasional opening over losing the trail.

Now that you've got me going, Whiteface really needs to let a few trails bump up and stay that way!

[freeheelwilly]

Leave the trail alone. So what if it doesn't open very often? That just makes it that much better when it does. The very things that make it hard to open are what makes it so cool. So if you modify it in order to open it more it won't be "Empire" anymore. It's just one trail - why does it have to be open all the time. And skidds is right too - WF management should open it more.

BTW - upper cloud is open!

http://www.bitterjug.net/pics/beavis01.gif

[tjf67]

"Classic New England" trails have nothing to do with nostalgia. That's a bunch of huey. It has to do with tight, technical skiing the way mother nature intended it. It takes a pair for the skier to to ski it well, as well for mountain management to open it. It challenges the skier and is really what, for me, makes skiing fun. Sure, high speed cruisers and wide thoroughfares can be a lot of fun.....but they aren't what skiing is all about for some. So why make every trail fit that bill?

Saying that the only way Empire can ever be useful as a trail is to widen it and blow snow on it is garbage. Guess what folks, Sugarbush has had the same amount of snow year to date as Whiteface. They are 100% open. That includes Castle Rock....and that includes trails like Rumble and Lift Line. You think there are rocks and other obstacles on Empire? Nothing compared to those trails, yet those trails are open. They don't make snow on Castle Rock. In fact, Sugarbusg only boasts 68% snowmaking, yet they are 100% open, including the woods. Mad River Glen has even less snowmaking, has had the same amount of snow as Whiteface, and if you want to launch off the waterfall on Paradise it's open for your enjoyment.

So, Empire could be skied much more often, as difficult, rocky, or icy as it may be, without being widened and getting snowmaking. Unfortunately, for various reasons it seems Whiteface managment can't be as aggressive as other resorts in opening terrain. That's ok. It is what it is and we can be happy with it. Whiteface is still a great mountain and management does a great job. But don't sit there and try and say the only way Empire could be skied more is if it were homogonized like so many other trails. No, I'll take the occasional opening over losing the trail.

Now that you've got me going, Whiteface really needs to let a few trails bump up and stay that way!

No offense but I have skied castelrock many many times and empire per sqare foot has twice as many rocks.
Just poach the dam thing if you like it that much. Other than the mystery of it never being open its not that great of a trail. You can only ski it two may be three ways and its done.

[freeheelwilly]

I think it's important to keep in mind that Empire can't be groomed - too steep and narrow. That may differentiate it from Castlerock. I dunno.

[tjf67]

Is empire steep? I dont think so. Its just a double fall line when you get around the corner. If it were not skinny and rocky there would be nothing hard about it. Yeah guess if sky were not steep that would be easy as well

[Denison]

i second SKIdds, that management should be more agressive in opening Empire, but it should be done together with making it a Double Diamond.

[SKIdds]

"Classic New England" trails have nothing to do with nostalgia. That's a bunch of huey. It has to do with tight, technical skiing the way mother nature intended it. It takes a pair for the skier to to ski it well, as well for mountain management to open it. It challenges the skier and is really what, for me, makes skiing fun. Sure, high speed cruisers and wide thoroughfares can be a lot of fun.....but they aren't what skiing is all about for some. So why make every trail fit that bill?

Saying that the only way Empire can ever be useful as a trail is to widen it and blow snow on it is garbage. Guess what folks, Sugarbush has had the same amount of snow year to date as Whiteface. They are 100% open. That includes Castle Rock....and that includes trails like Rumble and Lift Line. You think there are rocks and other obstacles on Empire? Nothing compared to those trails, yet those trails are open. They don't make snow on Castle Rock. In fact, Sugarbusg only boasts 68% snowmaking, yet they are 100% open, including the woods. Mad River Glen has even less snowmaking, has had the same amount of snow as Whiteface, and if you want to launch off the waterfall on Paradise it's open for your enjoyment.

So, Empire could be skied much more often, as difficult, rocky, or icy as it may be, without being widened and getting snowmaking. Unfortunately, for various reasons it seems Whiteface managment can't be as aggressive as other resorts in opening terrain. That's ok. It is what it is and we can be happy with it. Whiteface is still a great mountain and management does a great job. But don't sit there and try and say the only way Empire could be skied more is if it were homogonized like so many other trails. No, I'll take the occasional opening over losing the trail.

Now that you've got me going, Whiteface really needs to let a few trails bump up and stay that way!

No offense but I have skied castelrock many many times and empire per sqare foot has twice as many rocks.
Just poach the dam thing if you like it that much. Other than the mystery of it never being open its not that great of a trail. You can only ski it two may be three ways and its done.
No offense taken, and we'll just have to agree to disagree. Or maybe we need to better define rocks that make a trail truely difficult. IMHO I haven't found Empire to have such things, either on sanctioned or unsanctioned runs. Oh, sure. There are lots of 'lil rocks to nick your bases. Yeah, you make a hop turn here or alter your line there because there is a rock a foot or two wide that you need to avoid. That has been my experience at least. Yeah, doing that on such a narrow trail isn't easy........but I agree with you that Empire isn't really that difficult a trail. Double black? Maybe relative to other trails on the mountain, but I don't think truely double black.

Maybe Castle Rock covers it's 'lil rock better, but upper Liftline and Rumble have the kind of rocks you don't hop over to avoid.....you either go around (if you can) or you launch. Those are the kinds of obstacles I'm talking about that truely make a trail difficult. I haven't seen that on Empire.

"Classic New England" trails have nothing to do with nostalgia. That's a bunch of huey. It has to do with tight, technical skiing the way mother nature intended it. It takes a pair for the skier to to ski it well, as well for mountain management to open it. It challenges the skier and is really what, for me, makes skiing fun. Sure, high speed cruisers and wide thoroughfares can be a lot of fun.....but they aren't what skiing is all about for some. So why make every trail fit that bill?

Saying that the only way Empire can ever be useful as a trail is to widen it and blow snow on it is garbage. Guess what folks, Sugarbush has had the same amount of snow year to date as Whiteface. They are 100% open. That includes Castle Rock....and that includes trails like Rumble and Lift Line. You think there are rocks and other obstacles on Empire? Nothing compared to those trails, yet those trails are open. They don't make snow on Castle Rock. In fact, Sugarbusg only boasts 68% snowmaking, yet they are 100% open, including the woods. Mad River Glen has even less snowmaking, has had the same amount of snow as Whiteface, and if you want to launch off the waterfall on Paradise it's open for your enjoyment.

So, Empire could be skied much more often, as difficult, rocky, or icy as it may be, without being widened and getting snowmaking. Unfortunately, for various reasons it seems Whiteface managment can't be as aggressive as other resorts in opening terrain. That's ok. It is what it is and we can be happy with it. Whiteface is still a great mountain and management does a great job. But don't sit there and try and say the only way Empire could be skied more is if it were homogonized like so many other trails. No, I'll take the occasional opening over losing the trail.

Now that you've got me going, Whiteface really needs to let a few trails bump up and stay that way!

No offense but I have skied castelrock many many times and empire per sqare foot has twice as many rocks.
Just poach the dam thing if you like it that much. Other than the mystery of it never being open its not that great of a trail. You can only ski it two may be three ways and its done.
No offense taken, and we'll just have to agree to disagree. Or maybe we need to better define rocks that make a trail truely difficult. IMHO I haven't found Empire to have such things, either on sanctioned or unsanctioned runs. Oh, sure. There are lots of 'lil rocks to nick your bases. Yeah, you make a hop turn here or alter your line there because there is a rock a foot or two wide that you need to avoid. That has been my experience at least. Yeah, doing that on such a narrow trail isn't easy........but I agree with you that Empire isn't really that difficult a trail. Double black? Maybe relative to other trails on the mountain, but I don't think truely double black.

Maybe Castle Rock covers it's 'lil rock better, but upper Liftline and Rumble have the kind of rocks you don't hop over to avoid.....you either go around (if you can) or you launch. Those are the kinds of obstacles I'm talking about that truely make a trail difficult. I haven't seen that on Empire.

Double black is when you can stand parallel to the fall line and touch the hill or just bend slightly and touch the hill. WF doesn't have such a thing. Narrow means nothing. The glades are narrow.

[Denison]

Double black is when you can stand parallel to the fall line and touch the hill or just bend slightly and touch the hill. WF doesn't have such a thing. Narrow means nothing. The glades are narrow.

Double Black will scare away gapers and allow the ones who can better enjoy the trail. It's not all about steepness.

[freeheelwilly]

It's not a tough trail to ski (unless you're a beginner). just a lot of fun. Love that trail but I can count the # of times I've skied it on one hand.

[SKIdds]

Double black is when you can stand parallel to the fall line and touch the hill or just bend slightly and touch the hill. WF doesn't have such a thing. Narrow means nothing. The glades are narrow.
I wouldn't say narrow means nothing, but does not a double black alone it make. Narrow in something bordering a no fall zone has to count, even if not extremely steep. But otherwise I agree with you. My only experiences with true double blacks has been the Lake Chutes at Breck (after the 45 minute haul back before they could claim 13,000 feet lift serviced) and the East Wall at A Basin. Took a route down the chin at Stowe that might qualify. Other than those I've been on plenty of other double blacks, but all of those were double black for the reason Denison threw out. Keep the gapers off, difficulty relative to other trails on the mountain, yada, yada, yada......

I wouldn't put anything less than an expert on Empire, but for those who belong it isn't really difficult.......and it is a heck of a lot of fun. I guess I've been pretty luck if this once or twice a year wanna-be has been able to ski Empire as often as a local. Of course I don't have to worry about patrol lifting my season pass.

[highpeaksdrifter]

Double black is when you can stand parallel to the fall line and touch the hill or just bend slightly and touch the hill. WF doesn't have such a thing. Narrow means nothing. The glades are narrow.

Narrow means plenty, it means you have to turn them or you're in the woods. Any advanced skier can make turns down a steep, wide slope.

To ski Empire you need skills. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 turns stop, another turn, slip, etc. To ski that top to bottom in the zipper line you have to be good.

Double black is when you can stand parallel to the fall line and touch the hill or just bend slightly and touch the hill. WF doesn't have such a thing. Narrow means nothing. The glades are narrow.

Narrow means plenty, it means you have to turn them or you're in the woods. Any advanced skier can make turns down a steep, wide slope.

To ski Empire you need skills. I'm not talking about 1 or 2 turns stop, another turn, slip, etc. To ski that top to bottom in the zipper line you have to be good.

Thanks for the ski lesson, I'll have to keep that in mind :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[takeahike46er]

SKIdds, I am glad that you brought up Castlerock because those runs are analogous to Empire, even if there are some differences. Natural snow isn't the problem with Empire's uptime.

WF management could choose to open it more often with warnings about the terrain. I also believe the trail could be improved so that it holds up better to what little traffic it sees. Fix the runoff problems on the trail (hence the ice) and get rid of some of the rocks. Snowmaking can't get rid of these problems. It can only bury them temporarily underneathe a layer of hardpack.

[SKIdds]

I think it's important to keep in mind that Empire can't be groomed - too steep and narrow. That may differentiate it from Castlerock. I dunno.
Sorry, missed this one. Just like Empire, trails like Rumble and Liftline can't be groomed. Similar to Empire, too steep, narrow and rocky (as in ledges and drops, not nick the bottom of your skis rocks). As 46er confirmed, Empire and the Castle Rock area are very similar in a lot of ways. Great skiing. Well worth a trip if you've never been. John and Dan Egan cut their teeth on trails like Rumble.

[mattchuck2]

I agree with FHW . . . leave it alone . . it makes it that much better when it is open . . . like a bonus, for those in the know (it's location kind of shields it from the unclean masses).

Also, it's not that hard . . .




For me.

[Jack the Ripper]

It's not a tough trail to ski (unless you're a beginner). just a lot of fun. Love that trail but I can count the # of times I've skied it on one hand.

I've skied Empire at least ten times. I'll ski it 3 or 4 times the rare days its open. Skier right all the way is the bomb. You've got a big hit where it opens at the bottom. Love that trail. :twisted:

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

Empire is the best trail on the mountain, plain and simple.

Why? Because it is like nothing else on the mountain. I remember skiing it one day when there was a tight line of (almost) perfectly spaced bumps down the middle of the upper chute, and maybe only one or two rocks sticking out. Some of my best memories at Whiteface are from that day. Great run (especially the first third). Very unique.

It's not like widening it and adding snowmaking will really make that much of a difference in terms of managine skier traffic. Also, I'm afraid to find out that, with a widened Empire, all that will be left is a short drop and a long double fall line run-out.

Do we really need another Wilderness debacle? Wilderness used to be a fantastic trail, and now, while still good, it's completely generic.

[Phineas]

Empire is the best trail on the mountain, plain and simple.

It's not like widening it and adding snowmaking will really make that much of a difference in terms of managine skier traffic. Also, I'm afraid to find out that, with a widened Empire, all that will be left is a short drop and a long double fall line run-out.



totally agree - was asked a season ago if widening Empire was a good idea and told mgmt - no way, no how! :twisted: