Gondi loading in downtown NC! Check it out.

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

Au Contraire....i happen to be carrying my end of the debate very effectively. not only am i supported by evidence, common sense and logic, the Post Star articles are bearing me out.

lol. dude, you are hilarious....you gotta take your routine out on the road.

[Snowballs]

boy, i don't know how Gore or Face could be operating in the red...... do they really say this? how would it be possible? they don't have to pay for any improvements they make ........doesn't the Goverment(s) give that money to them as a grant - not a loan ? their ticket prices are in sync with the private areas. their season passes maybe a bit cheaper, but that would likely be more than covered by not having to pay for any improvements. Plus, they wouldn't have to pay sales tax on anything...on major purchases that could be some coin.....fuel tax savings on already discounted fuel and possibly utilities. they would be buying their purchases off the state contracts which have substantially reduced prices. do they pay real estate or school taxes? they get plenty of patrons. neither area pays for the vast amount of water they consume for snowmaking... does West mtn. et al pay for water for snow making ? what about Federal or State income taxes....i'ld bet they don't pay either of these major costs, especially state income tax. they have many, many financial advantages over the private areas.

do they really say they come up short per anum? if so, how's that possible? where's the money going?


***EDIT*** i wonder if they ever even had a mortgage payment to make?

well, no input? it's makes me curiuos when things don't add up, as listed above. here's a link that shows that Gore gets improvement money as GRANTS - not loans. this is a huge advantage over privately run ski areas. Gore/Face should not operate in the red. with grants to pay for improvemnets, and the many other reasons i listed above, i also question if/why they would need yearly State money for their budgets. think how well off you'ld be if you didn't pay taxes or mortgage costs, got large discounts on purchases and received grants to make improvements.

not bashing. just pointing out a large anomoly that directly effects us.

http://www.poststar.com/articles/200...cal/247458.txt


and here's yet another refutation of " someone " on here who refuses to acknowledge obvious truths even when confronted with hard evidence.

http://www.poststar.com/articles/200...ocal/29587.txt http://www.poststar.com/articles/200...ters/30723.txt

in these articles you'll see others- some public officials- pointing out inequities between Face and Gore, ala preferentail treat for Face. this is how it will remain. i'm not sure it even bothers me-so far. i'm just keeping it real..... x10003q was right.

i did think it interesting that Pratt chose the "no comment" route. he coulda tried to deny it.

[x10003q]

Thanks for the acknowledgements. I am a huge fan of Gore. I have been skiing at Gore for the last 23 years. I only invoke Statton and the other Vt ski areas as a point of comparison. I do not want Gore to turn into Stratton. However, I do not think the Front Street Dev. will turn Gore into Stratton. Having ski in/ski out at Gore will increase the daily base of skiers at Gore every day of the week. I think the mountain can handle way more skiers before there is crowding because the parking is limited. Adding 200-300 units to an area that is lacking beds will not overcrowd Gore. Also, until it is built, Front Street is just somebody's dream. There are a lot of incomplete and failed developments around NC.

Here are some numbers from the ORDA financials that are posted here:
http://www.orda.org/newsite/about/annual_report.php

2007-2008 season
Gore 238,467 skier visits $8,104,141 revenue
WF 214,108 skier visits $8,052,833 revenue
There is some kind of accounting for season pass use.
In the audited financial report from 2007, it is reported that WF is responsible for generating 29% of ORDA revenue and Gore is resposible for 23% of ORDA revenue. I think WF generates more money in the summer (mt biking, gondola rides, the road to the top of WF). Costs are not broken out for individual venues. The general consensus at Gore is that Gore is usually profitable and WF is not. I do not think the other venues (maybe the ice rinks) are profitable either. This leads to the opinions that Gore is used as a cash cow to support the other venues.

The Top Ridge Triple was a tough decision for Gore. I think that lift remains uncrowded because the ride is too long for the terrain. The long flat right off the triple to get to the steeper sections is a bummer. I am usually good for a few rides, but I get bored with the trails. If it was a high speed lift I would stay there longer.

Earlier in this thread I mentioned the Winter Park Ski Train as an example for the train to Gore. Snowballs has it right about the train, after 69 years the Winter Park Ski Train will no longer be operating. It made its final run at the end of March and all the equipment was sold. The web site says it operated at a loss for the last 21 years. I use rail to commute to NYC. Since 9/11, my wife uses rail to go up to Boston and down to Wash DC. These rail systems might not 'make money', but they move a lot of people out of cars. The less pople on the road at rush hour the better. A ski train seems to be too much of a hard sell.
http://www.skitrain.com/

[Harvey44]

Nice work on the Post Star archives SB. Love reading that stuff.

I am a huge fan of Gore.

Me too.

I've heard a lot of smack on Gore. X...would love to hear you elaborate on this. Maybe it's another thread..."What do you like about Gore?"

Also if you feel like sharing...what's the screen name mean?

[ComeBackMudPuddles]

The general consensus at Gore is that Gore is usually profitable and WF is not. I do not think the other venues (maybe the ice rinks) are profitable either. This leads to the opinions that Gore is used as a cash cow to support the other venues.

I'd be surprised if this is the case....With similar revenue, Gore needs more snowmaking (more terrain, less snow, warmer temps) and probably has other higher fixed costs (lifts, personnel), so it seems that there's no way Gore makes more profit than WF.

Just pure speculation, of course. But, so is citing the "general consensus".

Anyway, overall, for fans of WF and Gore, I think ORDA is doing a good job. Sure, I'd want lower daily ticket prices for friends, etc., but the season pass prices are a steal, IMHO.

[Danzilla]

Bummer to hear about the snow train in Denver. Never rode it but I knew of its existence. I just rode the LIRR from penn station to Montauk for a weekend with some friends and I loved it. The ride cost me $15 and it was only 3 hours. On a friday afternoon the ride would have taken me 4-5 easy and I was able to put back a few cold ones on the way. Too bad a train to NC would be neither fast nor cheap. I like the enthusiasm but I think there are much better ways to spend money.

Interesting threads about WF and Gore. Last time I checked WF only has one high speed detachable quad and a gondola? Gore now has two high speed detachables and a Gondola (granted one of them is from 1983. If I were a WF regular I would probably be pissed that lookout didn't get a high speed lift. They could certainly use one up to the summit too. That is a long slow ride on a bitter day. Not defending anyone's money decisions at ORDA but I don't think the disparity between the two areas is that great - at least not these days. I also vote for the plastic wind shields that they have out west at least on a few lifts (ADK express and BRQ come to mind). They would really be nice on a windy day and would cut down on the gondi line.

D

[Snowballs]

I also vote for the plastic wind shields that they have out west at least on a few lifts (ADK express and BRQ come to mind). They would really be nice on a windy day and would cut down on the gondi line.
D

yep. now THERE'S A GOOD IDEA! especially if the shield could be left up on nice days.....to enjoy the view and watch the skiers.

i talked to a Gore employee once who said he got stuck on the ADK express during a break down on one of those really cold, windy days for 3-4 hours. he said he thought he was gonna die.

you're right. it would cut down on the gondi traffic and it would help the Park Rats.

[x10003q]

Harvey 44- my name is just some letters and numbers that are easy for me to remember. I have heard a lot of interesting stuff in my years at Gore. Maybe you should start the thread

Mud Puddles- If WF made any profit it would be on every ORDA report.

Lussi made a sarcastic comment on how much it cost to run the new Lookout area at WF this past season when they were talking about how much it would cost to run the ski bowl area at Gore. I think it is very expensive to make snow on the upper trails at WF. Cloudspin and Skyward go from about 2550 ft to 4486 ft above sea level. Those 2 trails are 150 ft wide and very exposed. You also have to pump the water up from the Ausable (about 1200 ft above sea level). Lookout tops out at 4000 feet. I do not think WF has a resevoir, but I am not sure. No resevoir means when they make snow it comes directly from the Ausable. Also, most of the trails face east.

At Gore, as we all know, the best snow on faces north (High Peaks/Dark Side and the North Side). They rarely blow snow on the North Side. Gore takes water from the Hudson (1000 ft above sea level) and sends it to the resevoir below the north quad at about 2100 ft above sea level. The top of Gore is only 3600 ft, well below the 4386 at WF. The only trails that are badly exposed are Fairview and the wide trail just below the Saddle Lodge where Cloud runs into Sunway. Twister is very wide, but it has wind protection from Burnt Ridge and it starts below 3000 ft. It might be cheaper to blow snow at Gore even with the larger acreage. Gore also runs lean midweek. I have been there mid week in early March when the only Sunway, Top Ridge, Straightbrook, and the Gondola are running. There is nothing like taking a midweek vacation at Gore and finding 1/3 to 1/2 of the mountain closed for your full price lift ticket.

Of course I could be wrong.

Danzilla- I used to do the LIRR out to Hampton Bays (from NYC)on the weekends. When I first started going out there(1987) the trains did not have AC. The worst part was the change in Jamaica. If you were waiting on the wrong part of the platform you had to stand for the whole sweaty ride. Eventually by the mid 1990s I was riding on double deckers that had plenty of seats and AC. What a change. This is an example of where trains work.

I too always hoped to try the Winter Park train. The train goes through about 28 tunnels.

Mt St Anne in Quebec has a HSQ with the wind shield. It can be a life saver. I was up there one weekend in March and the high for the day was -10F. The place was packed. The Canadians are hardy people.

[Snowballs]

well, hold up a minute on the......ORDA treating Gore and Whiteface equally thing.

i just found this inequity while checking the pass price deadline. thru june 12.....

Gore $399 gets you a MIDWEEK non holiday Gore only ski pass.
Whiteface $399 gets you a non holiday Face only ski pass.

see the difference? it's very substantial! esp. if you work Monday - Friday. wtf! that's not cool! i only buy my family Full season passes. but this difference in ski days for $399 pass buyers is not fair! period!

Harv... aka Mr. Gore....please start that thread 3q mentioned. HPD, please make it a sticky. one for Face, too. over time much info and many memories will be added. a wealth of info! it will be way cool! people will dig it and many will post on it. Remember this...... or did you know..... or one time, this happened...

my impression of that Lussi comment 3q mentioned was that it seemed more like an obstacle he wanted to lay down to justify delaying the Bowl lift install and shake down Front Street vs a serious $$$ problem w/lookout. not sure, just my impression.

i also read recently in an old Post Star article that the agreement on the Bowl has the Town paying for the Lift electricity, etc. so Pratt's figures don't include that. gotta double check. i've found some other odd stuff that i'll post later. gotta double check. dosvedonya.

[I:)skiing]

The NEWS ENTERPRISE talks about the long term plans of gondi loading at the train station.....read the article "hidden North Creek" page two.




http://issuu.com/denpubs/docs/ne_06-06-09/1?mode=a_p