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  1. #11
    bigdogmom's Avatar
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    Greenfield Center, NY
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    follow up

    This week I followed up and emailed Mike Pratt that as the June 17th deadline approaches I was still concerned that the “CONDITIONS OF USE” statement was not amended to assure that funds would be returned in the event that Gore fails to open for the 2010/2011 season.

    Emily replied to my email and she said: “Our season pass information was published in late March and it won't be revised”.

    She also stated: “However from my knowledge and experience, I would be confident in purchasing a 10/11 pass.”

    I believe that Gore would feel obligated to return our money if the mountain failed to open. I believe that the State of NY would want to keep our money or return it at a much later date.

    Here is the deal, it looks like Gore is planning to open and operate in some capacity in 2010/2011. But what if they don’t? Then we have missed an opportunity to purchase passes early at a discount from the neighboring mountains and our funds may be locked up for a while with the State.

    We are witnessing some strange events here in NY State. Thatcher Park is now closed and horse breeders are currently moving horses out of Saratoga due to the uncertainty of the summer meet. Those are realities I never thought I would see.

    If I do purchase a pass, I’ll probably ask Mike to sign something that says I can have my money back if Gore fails to open. I’ll probably be ridiculed by the Gore staff and others on this forum but money is money and I doubt many of us would willingly part with well over a thousand dollars with no guarantees.

  2. #12
    Bravo Bigdogmom. I agree with you 100%. Several things can be gleened from this thread if one is experienced in doing legal battle with the Politicos. Notice that you sent your email to Pratt but he had his underling respond to it and a vague response it was. He won't put anything FIRM in writing on this issue. This gives him plausible deniablity. IF there is nothing to worry about, Pratt could of very easily responded in writing.." There is nothing to worry about. Gore will operate at the same capacity it always has. In the unlikely event Gore does not open, Gore will gladly refund season pass money."

    That would have been the easy, logical response. It would reassure would be pass purchasers and be good for Gore's preseason sales! YET Pratt chose not to respond that way. Neither did he have Emily respond that way. I do find that curious.

    Pratt normally responds himself to his email, even ones with messages he doesn't like. I know this first hand.

    Asland brought us some info earlier in this thread, but it's not an answer that Whiteface wrote down, hence it's deniable - nonbinding in a Court of Law. It speaks volumes when they will say one thing in a private conversation, but not COMMIT to it publicly or in writing. IF what Asland brought us is their Official position it would make sense and be good for their preseason sales if Pratt, et al would address it publicly. HE SPECIFICALLY CHOSE NOT TO!

    These are key distinctions. It's how the game is played by these types.

    Pratt/ORDA will straddle the fence on this issue. They seek to protect their sales and those of the area's businesses. The last thing they want is to arm us with evidence that we could use in a Class Action Suit that would include Pass refunds and Fees and Costs of Suit.
    incoming .................DUCK !

  3. #13
    There is a difference between the normal situation where the nonrefundable Pass disclaimer applies and the situation we are now facing. Normally the nonrefundable disclaimer comes into play if Mother Nature is noncooperative. Excessive warm weather, earthquake/tornado/fire takes out the resort....yada blahs like that are beyond Gore's control. No fault of their own.

    That is a completely different animal than we are now facing. A business which would take our money up front and then fails to uphold their end of the contract due to their financial situation, well that becomes a fraudulent transaction. If they know beforehand they will not be able to fulfill their obligation to us, theft by deception. This is why we need clarification. It's not cool if they try to hide beyond the reasonablity of the first scenario when infact the second scenario is the likely reality we face.

    Things are bad enough in NY that ORDA may not receive any funds from the State. Depending on ORDA's solvency, it may or may not effect their opening of the mtns. The 5 million State contribution is but a fraction of ORDA's budget. 3%? However, strong arm posturing to extract funds is a big playing card here in NY. ORDA may also choose to neglect Gore in favor of Placid. Or Orda simply may be so over extended that losing the State's 5 million, the expenses of ORDA building the Placid Convention Center, loss of preason sales may be sufficient to shut the doors at Gore. In this scenario, my guess is they would cover their butt by opening, but with severely limited operations and even more crappy or nonexistant snowmaking.

    Indeed, UNLESS there was a mechanical snowmaking problem last year that has since been repaired, OR ORDA kicks in more money for snowmaking, the addition of the Ski Bowl to the snowmaking load will result still in even worse ski conditions.

    If preseason pass sales are down, Pratt may come out with a vague, noncommittal statement to attempt wooing back his clients. Likely it will be in a " Pratt friendly venue " where he gets pats on the back and will not be cornered into giving concrete answers to difficult questions. That's the road, the venue he usually chooses.
    incoming .................DUCK !

  4. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowballs
    The last thing they want is to arm us with evidence that we could use in a Class Action Suit that would include Pass refunds and Fees and Costs of Suit.
    Class actions are bullspit. Class members get little. Only the attorneys make money
    The sea was angry that day my friends, like an old man trying to send back soup at a deli

  5. #15
    bigdogmom's Avatar
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    Jan 2010
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    Greenfield Center, NY
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    Final thoughts

    I’ve been thinking about my post where I stated that I would ask the Gore management to sign a statement that will guarantee that my funds will be returned in the event that Gore fails to open.

    My thoughts are:

    1) I don’t believe that any one person at Gore has the authority to sign a statement concerning this issue. Mike is the General Manager but who writes the checks?

    2) I don’t think Mike would sign a statement from me because ….who the heck am I anyways.

    3) I have been a fairly outspoken critic of Gore this past season due to premium parking and the lack of snowmaking. Perhaps Gore does not need an old curmudgeon like me at the mountain and they may refuse to sell me a ticket if I ask them to sign a statement. As much as I hate to say it, I fear I may be digging myself a hole. The facts are that I really want to ski next year and Gore is the closest mountain that has the terrain I enjoy. If I keep poking at this issue I might be the one left without a pass.

    4) I do believe that Gore will open and operate next season thereby fulfilling their end of the deal. I have no legal recourse if the mountain operates at a diminished level of expectation.

    5) Last and most obvious, if Gore takes in thousands and thousands of dollars in advance from thousands of customers and then reneges, the uproar will be deafening and we will all get our money back. The concern will be; how long will it take to obtain the refund.

    So I am done with this. With trepidation I will purchase my passes next week. I feel a bit defeated in that I do think my point was justified but when push comes to shove I am at a greater risk of being denied a pass and that too is uncomfortable.

    I will feel vindicated if the “Conditions of Use” Statement is re-written for the 2011/2012 season.

  6. #16

    Re: Final thoughts

    Quote Originally Posted by bigdogmom
    I’ve been thinking about my post where I stated that I would ask the Gore management to sign a statement that will guarantee that my funds will be returned in the event that Gore fails to open.

    My thoughts are:

    1) I don’t believe that any one person at Gore has the authority to sign a statement concerning this issue. Mike is the General Manager but who writes the checks?

    2) I don’t think Mike would sign a statement from me because ….who the heck am I anyways.

    3) I have been a fairly outspoken critic of Gore this past season due to premium parking and the lack of snowmaking. Perhaps Gore does not need an old curmudgeon like me at the mountain and they may refuse to sell me a ticket if I ask them to sign a statement. As much as I hate to say it, I fear I may be digging myself a hole. The facts are that I really want to ski next year and Gore is the closest Montanan that has the terrain I enjoy. If I keep poking at this issue I might be the one left without a pass.

    4) I do believe that Gore will open and operate next season thereby fulfilling their end of the deal. I have no legal recourse if the mountain operates at a diminished level of expectation.

    5) Last and most obvious, if Gore takes in thousands and thousands of dollars in advance from thousands of customers and then reneges, the uproar will be deafening and we will all get our money back. The concern will be; how long will it take to obtain the refund.

    So I am done with this. With trepidation I will purchase my passes next week. I feel a bit defeated in that I do think my point was justified but when push comes to shove I am at a greater risk of being denied a pass and that too is uncomfortable.

    I will feel vindicated if the “Conditions of Use” Statement is re-written for the 2011/2012 season.
    My two cents - I think it's a reasonable approach. I think you are right that nobody who actually works on the hill has the authority to do what you are asking. Hey it's certainly a reasonable request, but this is new territory and there probably isn't anybody who could/would do it - even the governor.

    I also doubt anybody holds a grudge about outspoken customers. They certainly shouldn't. Put it this way, if you didn't really CARE about it, if you weren't invested in Gore for whatever reason, you wouldn't complain, you'd just head to Okemo.

    And the biggest point is #5. As I said above - the uproar would make paid parking angst look like a tea party.

    As I said in the other thread, we jumped in. It's a risk, but not the biggest one I've ever taken. With the land we own in the area, we're coming up in the winter no matter what. We're paying our property tax and plowing, and utilities and mortgage. If we didn't buy a pass we'd still spend all the rest of it.

    If I can slide down hill with the help of the lifts at Gore, it will be a good thing.
    Harvey Road: NYSkiBlog.com

  7. #17
    The Stone Age didn’t end because people ran out of stones.

  8. #18
    Great news.

    Work is going on, money is now coming in. From afar, it looks like luck has been going Gore's way since the snow melted.

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